.45-70 loads

[daveinvegas]

I have access to an original Springfield Trapdoor rifle (.45-70) and I'd like to shoot it.

I have cast 400 and 500 grain bullets and will be using vellum to patch the bullets.

I'm researching this but as I recall original .45-70 loads were .45 caliber, 500 grain bullets, with 70 grains black powder (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

So, what loads do y'all use for BP and Pyrodex with a paper patch bullet? I was thinking about using 50-60g of powder for the carbine.

Thanks

 

[rcmodel]

The original GI trap-door rifle load was a 405 & 70 grains.

The GI Carbine load was later reduced to 405 & 55 grains.

The Trap-door military load used grease-lubed .458" bullets.

Paper patching would probably require a .450" bullet to make room for two wraps of paper.

rc

 

[scrat]

Yep what RC said

Except
1. i never cared.

Black powder is forgiving in that sense. Unlike smokeless. you have to just remember to always seat the bullet firmly to the powder. So lets say the COL Cartridge overall length is 2.55. take a bullet you are using put it next to the case and measure where 2.55 should be. now you will know how far the bullet will need to go. you can go a tad shorter just not longer. so now you load up 50 grains of powder, then a fiber wad. then use a filler like cream of wheat and fill up the mark you need maybe just a tad higher to compensate for the compression. now you are good for 50 grains. Seat your bullet to at or just below that mark making the COL 2.55 make 5 rounds this way. then make 5 more at 55 grains of black working your way up. Go to the range and shoot them off in groups. You will figure out which ones work the best in your gun. There you have it tailor loads to your gun.

That will be $100

 

[Curator]

Good advise from Scrat. If you size your cast bullets to .450 or .451 you should have no problem paper patching them up to .462 diameter. That is what almost always works best in Trapdoor Springfield .45-70s. You will also find that getting more than about 62 grains of FFg in a modern .45-70 case won't leave enough room for the bullet even allowing for compression. If loading real black powder also use a "black-powder type" lube and some kind of card wad under the bullet

 

[Acorn Mush]

I'm researching this but as I recall original .45-70 loads were .45 caliber, 500 grain bullets, with 70 grains black powder (please correct me if I'm mistaken).

So, what loads do y'all use for BP and Pyrodex with a paper patch bullet? I was thinking about using 50-60g of powder for the carbine.

Dave, you are right about the old .45-70 rifle cartridges being loaded with 70 grains of powder and a 500-grain bullet. For the carbines however, I believe the load was reduced to 55 grains of powder and a 350-grain bullet.

 

[batteran]

Some very interressant reading about black powder and metallic rifle cartridges:

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

Many reloading datas at the end.

[EDIT: Sorry, i misread, no reloading for patched bullet here.]

 

[StrawHat]

Two books that are a must for reloaders of the 45-70. First is by Wolf Spence who spent years researching and duplicating the original Arsenal loading and documented it in his book.

http://www.4570book.info/

Next is 40 Years with the 45-70 by Paul Matthews.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/forty-years-with-45-70-paul-matthews/1015811933

The original load was a 405 grain hollow based bullet over 70 grains of black powder. The Lee bullet mold is a good rendering of the bullet. The powder charge was reduced to 55 grains because the troopers complined of the recoil in the carbines. The bullet weight was changed to 500 grains to improve long range accuracy. And tests were done at LONG range!

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

Paper patching in a Trapdoor is vexing. The geometry of the loading platform is wrong and it is easy to tear patches when chambering the cartridge. (Better platforms are the Rolling Blocks and the Sharps) It can be done but it is troublesome. Bores on original vary widely in dimension and I usually get best accuracy using an unsized and pan lubed bullet. Actually, the throat on the Trapdoor is the goofy dimension. The largest bullet you can load and chamber is usually the most accurate.

As for Black Powder or Pyrodex, just use the black powder. Or skip to smokelss and leave the imitators out of the equation. Pyrodex is a lot more trouble than it is worth, in my experience.

The Trapdoor rifle is a great rifle and can be fairly accuate. Fit and finish is better than a lot of the stuff sold today. Have fun with it and enjoy it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I agree with Straw Hat. I would not bother with paper patching the 45-70. Much simpler to just use a bullet sized to the bore. I like the 405 grain Flat Nosed bullets made by Montana Precision. You can buy them at Midway, also at Buffalo Arms. They also make a hollow based version if you are not certain of your rifling groove diameter.

 

[buttrap]

Thats a good idea but with the bore diamater of most traps I dont see what else he can do as they dont make bullets in .46 caliber. First slug the bore and find out if its a .458 or a .464 then go from there. A good share of them you may need to paper patch them to fit the bore.

 

[StrawHat]

Lots of bullet molds drop .460 or larger. You can even order them to drop large. What you can not do is get accuracy with torn patches. Patching is a lot of fun with the correct platform and a real grind with the wrong one. I am not one who has had luck with patched bullets in the 1873 Trapdoor.

I would recommend finding the hollow based bullets and use those to see if they work in your Trapdoor. That is what Springfiled intended to be used in them.

 

[dprice3844444]

and use cornmeal to take up the remaining space

 

[mohican]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70

The new cartridge was completely identified as the .45-70-405, but was also referred to as the ".45 Government" cartridge in commercial catalogs. The nomenclature of the time was based on several properties of the cartridge:

.45 : nominal bullet diameter, in decimal inches i.e. 0.458 inches (11.4 mm)
70 : mass of powder in grains.
405 : weight of lead bullet, in grains i.e. 405 grains (26.2 g)

The minimum acceptable accuracy of the .45-70 from the 1873 Springfield was approximately 4 inches (100 mm) at 100 yards (91 m), however, the heavy, slow-moving bullet had a "rainbow" trajectory, the bullet drop measured in multiple yards (meters) at ranges greater than a few hundred yards (meters). A skilled shooter, firing at known range, could consistently hit targets that were 6 × 6 feet (1.8 m) at 600 yards (550 m)—the Army standard target, and a skill mainly of value in mass or volley fire, since accurate aimed fire on a man-sized target was effective only to about 300 yards (270 m).

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced, the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier 500 grain (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier 500-grain (32 g) bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,350 yards (3,120 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at roughly a 30 degree angle, penetrating 3 one inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach*. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volleyed fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.[5]