45-70-500 underrated as a hunting round

[Snidely70431]

While wandering around the Internet looking for information about loading the 45-70 with Unique, I came across a lot of discussions about the 47-70 as a hunting load. While some posters are of the opinion that the 45-70 is adequate for any game in North America, the gist of most of the postings is that its utility ends at something like 100 yards.

Some time ago I ran across an article that gives the lie to the 45-70 as inadequate for anything. It is about some tests the Army conducted at Sandy Hook, Long Island.

In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.
When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.

http://usarmorment.com/pdf/45-70.pdf

 

[LaneP]

I've always found the old test data an interesting read. Coincidentally I have a Lyman #457125 which casts a 500 gr RN bullet, on back order for a few months now. I can only imagine the amount of barrel elevation they must have used to lob those bullets that distance.

 

[edwardware]

I don't know if you failed to understand the challenge of .45-70 at extended ranges, but you didn't mention it in your post.

The challenge is trajectory. .45-70 will produce plenty of penetration to kill anything on the Continent out to 4-500 yards, but the trajectory will be yards above the sight line, the flight time is comically long, and consequent wind drift is extreme. If you can manage these issues and score a hit, .45-70 will not fail to penetrate.

Scoring that hit, with 5 or 10" of rear elevator sight, and a yard of wind compensation for a slight breeze, is a challenge. It's a huge challenge vs the relatively miniscule compensation necessary to score the same hit with a .30-06, .270, 6.5ManBun, etc.

In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load,

And I'll bet the shooter had to walk those hits in, mortar squad style over a dozen ranging shots, with corrections called by a spotter.

 

[dh1633pm]

I tend to load mine with 300 grain going at much faster speeds. I can hit well to 200 yards. It return, it smacks me good. Where I hunt, your lucky for a 50 yard shot. And just as likely kill a tree as anything else. Good read. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Iggy]

Midrange trajectory of a 45-70 500 to a 1000 yard target is 127 feet.

I have killed elk, mule deer, antelope, and scores of varmints with my Sharps and 1879 vintage trapdoor.
Awesome round properly applied.
I try to keep hunting shots under 100 yards, but have taken game and varmints beyond that.

 

[dave951]

As a friend of mine once said- "I use a 45/70 cuz I'm old, I've had 2 hip replacements and I don't like tracking. Deer are DRT"

 

[StrawHat]

What others are saying about the 45-70 is true. Trajectory and time of flight are the two big things going against the cartridge.

Personally, I feel it is a terribly over rated cartridge for hunting. It does not hit nearly as impressively as the 50-70 nor does it shoot as flat as the 405 WCF. But most folks don’t want to hear that because …

Kevin

 

[Snidely70431]

I'm not advocating the 45-70 as a hunting round at extended ranges. I'm just saying that if one can hit a target, a 45-70-500 will kill it. The military was testing it with the idea of shooting at an area target, like a group of enemy at extreme ranges.

I do not hunt. I served 2 tours in Vietnam and it is no challenge to shoot at something that cannot shoot back, and our society frowns on hunting people.

Now, if Bambo was around....

 

[Snidely70431]

What others are saying about the 45-70 is true. Trajectory and time of flight are the two big things going against the cartridge.

Personally, I feel it is a terribly over rated cartridge for hunting. It does not hit nearly as impressively as the 50-70 nor does it shoot as flat as the 405 WCF. But most folks don’t ant to hear that because …

Kevin

Ever shoot a .45 500 grain bullet cast out of pure lead and wrapped in paper (paper patched) to prevent leading? The thing expands to almost an inch in diameter.

 

[ericuda]

Midrange trajectory of a 45-70 500 to a 1000 yard target is 127 feet

Wow, lol. 127 feet is crazy. Love my 45-70 but long range would only be for novelty and fun. Interesting read though.

 

[Snidely70431]

I've always found the old test data an interesting read. Coincidentally I have a Lyman #457125 which casts a 500 gr RN bullet, on back order for a few months now. I can only imagine the amount of barrel elevation they must have used to lob those bullets that distance.

I like playing with paper patched bullets. I make my own molds based on the old Ideal Cylindrical Adjustable Mold. I can cast round nosed bullets in weights from 200 grains to over 700 gains.

Mine are not as neat, but they work:

 

[hawg]

45-70's have killed a lot of deer down here.

 

[Jim Watson]

There is no doubt a .45-70 will kill, but getting hits at extended range requires knowing the range and having a sight setting for it.

An old ad for the Gould Express bullet - a 330 gr hollow point - in .45-70:
The Gould Express, when loaded with 85 grains of Hazard's Ducking Powder, will shoot practically as flat as a .45-90 and with greater accuracy.

 

[Iggy]

A friend and I were shooting offhand at a full sized steel buffalo target at 1000 yards. We weren't doing too bad.
My wife walks up and asks, "Can I try it?" She is a hell of a shot with both rifle and handguns, not to mention tomahawks.
I explained the Vernier Sights on my Sharps.
She snuggles up to the rifle, peeks through the sights a couple of times, and let'sr rip.

She stood there a second, lowers the rifle and says "Did I hit.....".Bong!!! She hands me the rifle and says "It's best to quit on a hit!" and walked away.
It takes about 7 seconds from when you fire until you hear a hit at that distance.

 

[Snidely70431]

Midrange trajectory of a 45-70 500 to a 1000 yard target is 127 feet.
View attachment 1047281View attachment 1047282
I have killed elk, mule deer, antelope, and scores of varmints with my Sharps and 1879 vintage trapdoor.
Awesome round properly applied.
I try to keep hunting shots under 100 yards, but have taken game and varmints beyond that.

Beautiful rifles.

 

[dickydalton]

Back in a bout 2003 before I put the scope on it this GG dropped one at 170 yards with 405 grain Remington Core Loct. I love this gun.

 

[Obturation]

Familiarity with the specific load is essential, can't just load up any random 45-70 cartridge and think you'll hit anything at a given distance. I laugh when I see folks talking about how underpowered or useless this cartridge is, they simply don't understand the proper use.

It's like this, anyone who would say 44 magnum is weak doesn't know squat. The 45-70 is vastly more powerful than the 44 magnum could ever hope to be. So, not underpowered and not insignificant. I wouldn't try to shoot long range unless the rifle was specifically setup for it. A guide gun type rifle is best for 100 yard , open sight thumping. A lot of guys never shoot over 100 yards, I very rarely do. Will other cartridges deliver more energy with a flatter trajectory ? Of course . Will other cartridges push 400+ grains of lead from a cartridge that can be loaded with a huge variety of powders and simple cast bullets ? Not many. Certainly not doing that with a 30 caliber rifle .

Point is , if used within its ideal range there isn't much on dry land that can't be cleanly taken. Some folks think you need a 300 win mag for whitetail , that's fine but it's better to hit the target with a 22lr than a grazing shot with a 50 bmg. If you can hit your target with a 45-70 , it will work even at trapdoor velocities.

Biggest appeal to me is simple to load , big components and as much power as I care for. Low pressure loads with imr4198 and a 405 grain bullet can do 90% of anything I want to do. A full charge of imr4198 with a 300 grain barnes tsx covers the rest of my needs. But trying to turn the 45-70 into a modern rifle goes against its design, keep it simple- big heavy bullets at low velocity and learn to shoot your rifle and the desired load.

Brass lasts virtually forever, cartridges are large and easy to handle and easy to reload. No need for a hyper-sonic barrel burner to shoot a critter at 100 yards , the old 45 is very capable . guys like me aren't really interested in bottleneck cases that like annealing , trimming and other processes that rarely if ever apply to 45-70. Just load them, shoot them , resize and shoot them some more. I've been using the same starline 45-70 brass for years and it's all in pretty good shape, after its been loaded 10+ times I use it for light loads and even those surpass 44 magnum by a good bit.

If someone tells you 45-70 is useless, they just don't understand it. That's all.

 

[eastbank]

three shots with a 300 gr hornady HP bullet and a heavy load of H-4198(not top load) out of my #3 ruger at 100 yards. i have killed a lot of deer with that load. most shots were under 100 yards, but a few were close to 200 yards with about a 10" hold over.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Its the Indian not the arrow.

 

[dave951]

I've often said there's lots and lots of misinformation floating around and this is a perfect example. As a certified instructor, a shooting sports competitor (not pew pew, we actually have to hit things) and a long time fan of the 45/70 I have a couple observations.

First off, most shooters today don't know squat about actual shooting fundamentals. They just pick up a gun and have at it. Great to get folks into the sport, but without knowing the fundamentals of how to shoot accurately, a noob will NEVER be able to realize the potential of this round.

Second- modern arms with quick lock times and fast muzzle velocities are fine, but they cover up that same lack of skill. If you get good with a muzzle loader, I'd bet money you'd be a rock star with a modern gun in the eyes of many. Competition shooters strive to get the fundamentals right each and every shot.

Third- in the world of ballistics and statistics, there's lies, d@mn lies and opinions. FPS and FtLbs are very misleading because it ignores MOMENTUM. A 500gr bullet made of soft lead might have a 127ft trajectory, but it's still 500gr (twice the mass of a 44map bullet) and it's still moving in terminal velocity faster than a 44mag is at 100yds.

Does it take skill to get reliable shot placement at 200yd? Yup, and most average shooters today don't have it. All a modern gun does is cover up poor skill levels.

 

[Bronco72]

Beware of the man with only one rifle ! If it is a 45-70 I would still beware of him at great distance. He's just gotta know how to use that thing

 

[Risky buisness]

Having used both a marlin1895 45 70 with large doses of smokless with various combinations of projectiles and a 1879 Remington rolling block with only black powder for a long time, why some one would think that the cartridge is not sufficient is beyond me. The cartridge properly prepared, will put anything on earth down. With black or smokeless.
I presume thst it is now inconvenient to learn trajectory tables, be adept at range finding and the elementals of rifle shooting. If folks desire laser like trajectories and automated distance calculators, and high powered optics on a rifle.....ok. But dont mistake functionality as antiquated and useless

 

[ericuda]

I think most of the bad reviews as a hunting round comes from the stories of the 1,000 yard buffalo shot and folks expect that. In reality I treat my 1895 as a 100 yard hunting rifle. With 100 yd zero at 200 the drop is a foot.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Having used both a marlin1895 45 70 with large doses of smokless with various combinations of projectiles and a 1879 Remington rolling block with only black powder for a long time, why some one would think that the cartridge is not sufficient is beyond me. The cartridge properly prepared, will put anything on earth down. With black or smokeless.
I presume thst it is now inconvenient to learn trajectory tables, be adept at range finding and the elementals of rifle shooting. If folks desire laser like trajectories and automated distance calculators, and high powered optics on a rifle.....ok. But dont mistake functionality as antiquated and useless

Well ya gotta be able to drop your elk at 500 yards don't ya know? Otherwise you may have to actually....hunt. And that's too much trouble!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I think most of the bad reviews as a hunting round comes from the stories of the 1,000 yard buffalo shot and folks expect that. In reality I treat my 1895 as a 100 yard hunting rifle. With 100 yd zero at 200 the drop is a foot.

Actually, the problem is not trajectory, it is range estimation. Very very very few people can judge range even halfway well. Sighted a bit high at 100, the .45-70 will work out to 200 very well, IF, if if if if you can actually tell the difference between 200 yards and 300 yards. Most people can't.