Goex Black Powder Cartrige - 405gr 45-70

[Stormin.40]

I am going to start reloading for my Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 pretty soon and would like to use black powder. In researching different loads and techniques I have come across a lot of people who seem concerned over the recoil of the 405 and 500gr black powder loads.

I recently purchase 20 rounds of Goex manufactured black powder cartriges, these were 405 grain LRNFP. I have only shot 4 of these but found the recoil to be very comfortable out of my rifle.

Does anyone know how many grains of BP Goex is putting in these cartriges, I suppose I could pull one apart and measure but was hoping this was a know commodity.

I was hoping to load 500 grain LRNFP bullets for my rifle and was going to use Goex FFg with whatever amount of black powder it took to seat a 500 grain bullet on top of a 0.03 fiber wad and get about 1/8" of compression. Not sure how much powder that is but experimentation should work right?

I don't have the components and have zero experience loading black powder cartriges.

 

[dprice3844444]

only problem is all the yuck left over cleaning.smokeless is lots easier

 

[Jim Watson]

I dunno about that, I can get the soot out of my .40-65 faster than I can get the copper out of my .308. So the patches are blacker, so what?

I suspect that factory black ammo is loaded with around 66 grains of powder, that is about what a drawn case will hold with light compression.

Rdnck, the Goex field rep, suggests determining the black powder load by filling the case to the brim with loose powder, then weighing the amount and taking that as your base load.
When you drop tube it, it will settle into the case to some extent. The compression die will take it down whatever is required to seat the bullet without mashing it out of shape by trying to compress the load in the seating die.

 

[Stormin.40]

Jim,

Thanks Jim, maybe those that were complaining about the kick/recoil were using lighter rifles or carbines. Also thanks for the starting charge advice, I have some equipment to buy. Can I compress the BP using a dowel or is it going to need the force of a press/comression die?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

For my 45-70 Sharps and Trapdoor I prefer a 400 grain bullet. A little bit less recoil than a 500 grain bullet. This is the bullet I like. You also might browse around to see what else Midway carries in the Montana Precision line.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/76...-grain-lead-flat-nose-spg-lubricant-box-of-50

If you are new to loading Black Powder cartridges, I highly recommend Mike Venturino's book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West. Chock full of information about all the old single shot rifles, including the Trapdoor, and lots of information about loading the cartridges with Black Powder. The loading sections alone are worth the price of the book. Mike has one chapter covering general loading of single shot cartridges with Black Powder, and a separate loading chapter with tips by some championship shooters. This book will take you through loading all the old single shot cartridges with Black Powder, soup to nuts.

http://www.mlventerprises.com/buffalogun.htm

If Mike is out of copies, you can also find it through Amazon.

Loading 45-70 for Black Powder is going to entail some experimentation to determine just what your rifle likes best regarding powder charge and the amount of compression. I do recommend you invest in a drop tube and a compression die. You can buy a compression die through Buffalo Arms. You can buy a drop tube there too. Cabelas carries them too. Yes, you really need the leverage of the press and the compression die to compress your powder consistently.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Products.aspx?CAT=4427

As for ease of cleaning, besides the fact that this is a Black Powder page, I too find it easier to clean out a single shot rifle with Black Powder than a Smokeless rifle with jacketed bullets. Yes, it is messy. So what? I usually clean my Trapdoor at the range before I go home. A few patches and it is clean. I might follow up a little bit later at home. Besides, all the really good Black Powder cleaning solutions are water based. They are not toxic. Can't say the same about most Smokeless cleaning solutions.

P.S. The traditional loading for the Trapdoor carbines the cavalry used was only 55 grains of powder in the 45-70 case. The rest of the space was taken up with cardboard wads. The charge was reduced from 70 grains because the light carbines kicked too hard with the rifle load.

 

[Mac Attack]

I load 405 bullets with 70 grains of BP for my model 1874 replica Sharps. I use a drop tube and a compression die to make 70 grains fit. I find the recoil to be extremely comfortable to shoot compared to smokeless rounds I have tried in my rifle. I enjoy shooting BP in my rifle but cleaning up can be a PITA. I use a blow tube to help keep fouling moist and run a swab down the barrel every 15-20 rounds. I also drop my fired cases into a solution of water and Dawn dish soap so the brass cases do not tarnish before I can clean them properly. I think once I get through the 300 rounds I already have loaded with BP I will switch to smokeless and be done with it.

 

[Foto Joe]

Beginning your Black Powder Cartridge loading career with 45-70 is an ambitious undertaking, not impossible, just ambitious.

All the points made above (with the exception of those who don't want to use Black Powder) are spot on. I will add that each gun is going to have it's sweet spot. Jamming 70gr of powder into a modern cartridge and seating a bullet on it is not necessarily going to give you optimum performance and accuracy. Start with a much smaller charge than the max and keep REAL good records of performance and accuracy. As you work up the loads it will become obvious which one "your" particular gun likes the best.

Regarding Compression: DO NOT attempt to compress the powder with the bullet. You are going to need to invest the $$$ on a compression die. I use Montana Precision, they're not cheap but the compression stem can be changed out for different callibers.

Drop Tube: You can easily make your own out of a piece of copper tubing. I believe mine is a 3/8" copper tube with a larger coupler on top for the funnel with the die end wrapped in duct tape to fit the powder through expansion die.

In closing: Anybody can throw lead down range in front of smokeless powder and after you do this you too may become one of those folks. But why cheat yourself out of the experience of what this cartridge once was?

 

[Jim Watson]

It would help to have the book.
http://www.4570book.info/
LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL 45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE.

The .45 Government family (.45-70-405, .45-55-405, .45-70-500) is different from the .45-70 Winchester and .45 x 2 1/10" Sharps even though they use the same brass.
Loading ammunition appropriate for the gun will give better results than a generic approach.

 

[Stormin.40]

Thanks to everyone for the advice, I will take my time and invest in the proper equipment and books. I am not a skilled nor seasoned reloader but do pay attention to detail and have had good success with my other limited smokless rounds. BP is a new challenge that I think I will enjoy.

 

[BHP FAN]

my very first reloading experience was the .45-70, the cost of cartridges forced me into it, now I have over twenty each of moulds and dies, of many calibers, for both smokeless and real powder.

 

[dprice3844444]

hence why it's named 45/70 std gov load is a 405 grain lead roundnose bullet over 70 grains bp

 

[Stormin.40]

Curiosity got to me so I went ahead and pulled one of the Goex factory rounds I had purchased. Turns out Goex is making these rounds with 55 grains of FFg powder with a .06 fiber wad below a 405 gr FPBB bullet.

 

[hang fire]

Best .45-70 load for my vintage Ballard #5 Pacific is 63 grains of 2F Goex under a 405 grain PB boolit. It is very accurate and pleasant to shoot in the rather heavy Ballard.

My BP lube is very simple and easy put together, but it does a great job of keeping the fouling soft. I pour melted mix into lubrisizer, also use it with pretty hot smokeless loads for cast boolits in other calibers with no leading.

It consists of one cup each, melted beeswax and hydrogenized coconut butter (for popcorn) with one tablespoon of Mobil 1 syn oil. I live in a hot part of AZ and finding a lube that wouldn't breakdown and separate or melt lead me to the hydogenized coconut butter. Lube stays softly firm and the coconut butter laughs at 125 degrees.

 

[StrawHat]

From your pulled down cartridge, GOEX is loading the old carbine round except they should be using a hollow based bullet (similar to the Lee 458-405 HB mold).

For a first foray into black powder cartridge, you could do far worse than the 45-70. There is a welath of printed info available and it is one of the easier cartridges for working up loads. A drop tube is not necessary but won't hurt anything. Tapping the case after dropping th epowder will give simialr results. A compression die will do the same thing. As will dropping the charge in several stages and settling the powder between drops. Soft lead is essential to accurate loads. I have settled on 30/1 (lead/tin) but some like it a bit harder or softer. Primers should be standard, large rifle primers, magnum primers are not necessary regardless of what Spence wrote.

The recommendation of the 45-70 book by Wolf and Pat Spence is a good one. Especially for a Trapdoor, Venturinos book is good also as are a few others. I have several 45-70s and find they all like blackpowder and soft lead. And with the original ballistics, they are impressive on game.

In April of 1898 the Armory produced smokeless powder loads for use in the Trapdoor. However the demands of the war caused them to return to blackpowder loads by July of that same year. The adoption of the Krag stopped any Military experimenting with smokelss and the 45-70.

The Trapdoor is an interesting and accurate rilfe. Enjoy it.

 

[Buzzard II]

A very good book for beginners and advanced BPC shooters is "Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer" by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe available through www.buffaloarms.com. Part number is #BPCRP. Good shooting. Bob

 

[dprice3844444]

stormin,that is the official military load for the short barreled sharps carbines

 

[Stormin.40]

I realize that the puchased loads made by Goex are Carbine cartridges, its what the LGS had in stock and what I test fired my Grandpa's, now my, Trapdoor with. I have since loaded 20 rounds total, 10-405gr and 10-500gr, both on top of 65 gr Goex FFg. I used a drop tube and a compression die, the 500gr compression is about .250 and the 405gr comprssion is about .150. Bullets are soft 30:1 ratio, the 405s were supplied with BP lube, I had to remove the lube from the 500gr bullets and hand lube with BP lube. I can't wait to get to the range and see what they can do. The 405s are seated just deep enough to just touch the lands while the 500s are seated about .010 off the lands.

 

[savagelover]

FWIW====I would be damn careful buying some of the
factory 45-70 ammo....Your old rifle is not gonna take
a ton of pressure...Some stuff is pretty hot..So please be aware.

 

[Coltdriver]

Hey Foto Joe, why do you recommend a die as opposed to using the bullet to compress the powder?

Just trying to learn something.

I created a drop tube from three pieces of 18" long brass tube I bought at a hobby store. Each fit inside the other. I taped em to make a long tube and the smallest one fit neatly into my 45 70 case.

Makes it easy to get 70 grains of powder into the case. You want to be very careful about leaving air space with black powder. That's what other more experienced shooters told me.

Using the drop tube I could get 70 grains of FFFg and a very thin wad then seat and crimp the case. I shot these from an Encore barrel and shot some from my Marlin.

Worked great. Enormous nostalgia value!! But a bit messy to clean up. That was the buffalo killer round. I have a bunch of them left and shoot only smokeless now from my Marlin.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The reason not to compress with the bullet is so the base of the bullet is not deformed. If the base of a soft lead bullet gets deformed by compressing the powder, accuracy can suffer.

 

[Foto Joe]

Driftwood is spot on. The pure soft lead bullets that generally get used for Black Powder cartridge loading can't take a lot of punishment.

The other reason is consistancy. With a compression die you get exactly the same compression each and every time. I've used dowel rods with a handle attached but you just never know how much you're leaning on them. I do still use a dowel rod for my 45 Colt Gallery Loads on the powder, but I use the compression die to compress the filler that goes on top of that to give me a consistant depth for bullet seating.

 

[Coltdriver]

Thanks that is good to learn. I went to dead soft lead for all of my 45 70 loads a while back so this is very relevant info.

 

[Legionnaire]

Kicking this thread, as I'm planning to start some black powder reloading for my .45 caliber conversion cylinders. I'll look for a copy of the Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer. In the interim, is there anything special that needs to be done with cases dedicated to black powder? Do they clean up the same as smokeless cartridges (i.e., run 'em through the tumbler for a while)?

 

[StrawHat]

After you fire a blackpowder load, dump the empty casings into a bucket of soapy water and let them sit there until you get home. Slosh them around in the water a bit and pour off the dirty water. Add fresh soapy water and do it again. Deprime, dry and toss into the tumbler.

 

[Risky buisness]

In so far as cleaning brass goes, I bought an inexpensive Lee hand press and decap my brass as soon as I'm done shooting, throw the cases in a 1 gal milk jug ( cleaned of course) with soapy water, I use a little Dawn dish liquid, and shake, dump the dirty water when I get home and rinse/repeat. Tumble for an hour or 2 and I'm good to go. The reason I decap before I wash them is to allow the primer pockets to get cleaned too, made a mistake once with a box of spendy .44-77 and washed the cases without decaping, promptly forgot about the brass and came back some time later to a real mess and some primer pocket deterioration, may have been the soap I used reacted with the powder residue, but I ruined several cases non the less.