Brandishing part deux

[medalguy]

I just finished reading the thread "Brandishing..." and have a somewhat similar question.

I live in a remote part of New Mexico, in the mountains. We are at least an hour away from the nearest police station (sheriff) and frequently have a wait of more than an hour for an officer to respond to a call, unless there's a fatality or such involved. So, we're pretty much on our own.

Our home is behind a closed gate, not locked but closed with a chain, and we are about a quarter mile down a driveway from the road. We have a sign on the gate that reads "Private driveway-- not a public road- no trespassing" which is pretty clear. The road comes up to the house but about 50 yards before the house it splits and one driveway goes to the back of our property where there's a barn past the house.

Here's my scenario. Not too long ago we had a truck come down the driveway, take the fork behind the house, and stop at the barn. I walked back there to see what was going on, and there were three men standing at the door to the barn. As soon as I stepped into the clearing, two of the men got back into the truck and the third jumped into the back. I did not have a gun with me (foolish of me I believe). The truck turned around and drove off the property at a fast clip.

So, my question is whether any of you would agree that in the event of a repeat of this situation, I would be justified in carrying a weapon with me when confronting someone on our property. My wife says don't go out but I'm not prepared to have someone range at will for maybe an hour while waiting for the sheriff. Comments?

 

[hmphargh]

If they are not invited, you have signs, and you feel the need, I think that carrying a gun to confront the trespassers is a reasonable measure. If you are concerned about being charged with brandishing, then maybe you should get a holster?

 

[Art Eatman]

I have lived and do live in a similar situation. I'd have no qualms about toting, although it would likely be in my hip pocket when I went out to see what folks thought they were up to. I wouldn't charge out, gun in hand.

In hand, I'd have pencil and paper, writing down the license plate number. Descriptions, as well. I'd do that from as long a distance as possible and still read the numbers. After that, approach toward speaking distance, maybe.

To maybe reduce the need for hostile confrontation, you can buy time with one of these little inexpensive infrared remote sensors from Harbor Freight. The sensor notes a vehicle, and sends a signal up to 400 feet to the alarm. That give some time to think. Radio Shack has inexpensive little two-way radios so you could keep your wife informed as to the license plate number, for example. Trespassers would get the impression that you were on a cell phone to the law.

 

[Gungnir]

Similar situation as the OP. Live in the boonies in AK, it takes about a mile of trail to get to my place, so someone has to be committed. If I could call the police (no local phone lines, no cell coverage either) then they'd be here in oh around about 4-5 hours during the summer (a couple of weeks ago there was an AD/ND that led to someone getting shot in the leg, it took 8 hours for the police to arrive after the local clinic reported the GSW), and up to 3 days in the winter.

Any time someone comes calling, then I'm carrying. If I think I recognize the engine, or someone walks in I'll have my handgun. If I don't recognize the engine, I'll have a shotgun, or 45-70. We have posted signs clearly stating no trespass (and a bunch of other things too, since AK has some interesting land use laws). This behavior is very common out here, since we have no real police protection in any way that they could provide any type of real personal or property protection (no sheriff dept. or sheriff either).

 

[wishin]

So, my question is whether any of you would agree that in the event of a repeat of this situation, I would be justified in carrying a weapon with me when confronting someone on our property....?

Justified. And I recommend it - visibly holstered.

 

[ArmedBear]

I wouldn't go out without a firearm in that situation, but I'd likely keep it concealed. I might carry openly, but I would probably want a backup gun concealed. With three adversaries, I would want the element of surprise. Open carry lets them know exactly when you draw, and if they're armed, you may never get the chance to draw the gun.

WRT "brandishing": there's a world of difference between carrying and brandishing. FWIW, brandishing is essentially armed assault without the muzzle actually pointing directly at someone.

By and large, brandishing was the problem with the previous thread. Brandishing implies that you have no justification for actually drawing a gun and pointing it at someone, but you want to wave the gun around to make a point. It is hard to think of any time when brandishing is okay, because if the use of a firearm is justified by the situation, you should be pointing your gun AT the person who is a direct threat, not just waving it around!

 

[rbernie]

Yes, I'd have a concealed handgun on me in that situation, and would probably have a long gun not too far away.

I'd also make a point to house a couple of hounds in the vicinity of the barn.

 

[brboyer]

Yes, I'd have a concealed handgun on me in that situation, and would probably have a long gun not too far away.

I'd also make a point to house a couple of hounds in the vicinity of the barn.

For me it would be slung over the shoulder.

 

[RonBernert]

I think this is a great topic!
I also think you are perfectly justified in carrying either a concealed or open carried gun at all times on your property. I would.
With the argument of open or concealed, I'm torn.
The biggest reason I would encourage you to carry all of the time is because the people you are and will run accross are on your property without your consent and they know it. Personally, when I am in the woods, on camping trails or may be on a remote piece of private property I am very aware that I am on a privately owned trail. (you must understand Kentucky's trails and how the fire roads work here) This makes me very aware of who is around me, making my presence known along with my intentions. Criminals don't give you that courtesy.
If someone comes onto your property and you percieve a true threat, keep the gun in your holster, but put your hand on it. Cops do it all the time. Be ready for cover and keep your distance. On as much property as it sounds like you have, a larger framed, accurate gun beats a belly gun any day. Just my opinion.

 

[primetime]

ArmedBear...I still don't think you're on the same page with what i was originally asking on the first Brandishing post...And yes I do realize i failed to properly describe the situation in full initially...Or maybe you're generalizing a little bit just as a summarization of the last brandishing post.. You made excellent points and gave great advicve on Brandishing part 1.. "Waiving it around" was never once mentioned. Having the gun in my hand to my side, never pointing at anyone WAS the situation. My whole point was basically this (besides obviously calling 911) You pull your piece, BUT in the event, that you don't use it for whatever reason (the BG runs away, or this or that, it could be anything), then you could be legally classifed as brandishing the weapon as I learned...Thats all I was trying to convey.

No one here can seriously say "Oh if I pull my piece I'm using it no matter what"..And if you dissagree with that..well good luck to ya..You might be wrong once or twice...That was my whole point and why it may or may not be called "brandishing" at that point, IF you don't end up needing to use it. But you pulled the piece because you felt threatened and weren't sure, but rather be safe, then dead....

All this talk about "oh using your piece to intimidate is the wrong move etc" is off base..Its never about intimidation...Its always about survival, nothing more..Intimidation had nothing to do with it, and never will...Its about this: While waiting for 911 to arrive...."I don't know if the BG is armed or not under his clothing or garments, and I don't want to be dead trying to figure it out either. I may need to use deadly force since the BG is threatening me, and I sure as hell don't want to get into a "drawing" competition with the BG if he's armed..So, I pull my piece, holding it to my side the whole time, just in case i need to raise it and fire at him". Thus, the issue of "brandishing" comes into play...

But I will not pull my piece as a tool of intimidation or to wave around like a damn fool.. Not saying that was ever implied directly, just trying to be more clear thats all..

 

[Black Knight]

My opinion and it is only an opinion is you should be armed anytime someone uninvited shows up on your property day or night. At night I would have two guns available, especially if they bypass the house and go to the barn. The first would be a good to high quality handgun and the second would be pump action or semi-auto shotgun. In my neck of the woods most farmers have at least one shotgun so having one with you should not be to unusual. Before you go and investigate who the intruders are have your wife call the local sheriff or police and have them enroute. It might also be a good idea to put a lock on the gate. That way they would need to cut the chain or brake the gate (additional evidence for the police for justification if needed) in order to get in.

 

[NukemJim]

A thought to consider, IMHO snubby with a internal/conceaed hammer is extremely usefull for such situations. You can have your hand on it with it in your pocket so that your draw time is greatly reduced. You would be starting your draw with your hand on the firearm and yet you are not showing a firearm at all. You just have your hand in your pocket.

The reason I specify an internal/concealed hammer (i.e. S&W Centenial series ,640,442,340 etc... or Bodyguard series) is that in extremis, it can be fired multiple times from within the pocket, . This is only usefull for a very short distance but with sufficent practice it can be accurate to 1-2 yards. Masood Ayoob has written about it and I have destroyed some old coats practicing it.

Just to clarify I would NOT recomend that that a snub revolver be the only firearm you carry, just that having a gun that you can have your hand on unobtrusively can be a helpful thing.

Good luck with your bad situation.

Best wishes

NukemJim

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'd certainly be wearing a gun in a holster, and I think under the circumstances, I'd be wearing it openly. I doubt that merely openly wearing a holstered handgun would be brandishing. But if it were cool, I'd probably be wearing a jacket concealing my gun.

What I would have in my hands would be one of my digital cameras with a long zoom lens, and I'd be taking a bunch of pictures. I'd later file a report with the sheriff and have a bunch of photos for his file

 

[Art Eatman]

Stay with medalguy's sort of scenario and within your own legal structure in your responses...

 

[ArmedBear]

I doubt that merely openly wearing a holstered handgun would be brandishing.

It would not. The word "brandishing" has a meaning. I'd want an OC gun primarily because I'd want something bigger than a 642 if this turned out to be a life-threatening situation involving 3 people against 1. I can hit a target accurately, quickly, and pretty far away, with a decent pistol, and a 14-round .45 beats a .38 snubbie in this scenario. (A long gun would be good, but there may be reasons you might or might not want to carry one in any given situation. E.g., a long gun slung on my back is good for little, but a long gun pointed at someone is assault.)

You can have your hand on it with it in your pocket so that your draw time is greatly reduced. You would be starting your draw with your hand on the firearm and yet you are not showing a firearm at all. You just have your hand in your pocket.

EXACTLY

In the scenario in question, I'd consider that my backup, but that is exactly why I prefer pocket carry. Some say it's not the fastest way to draw from concealment, but I differ. It's the only practical way you can actually have your hand on the grip of the gun without exposing the gun. IWB with a cover garment may be faster in competition, where the paper target can't see you and shoot back, but total time from when the BG knows you're armed, to when you can fire, is longer from IWB than when you pocket-conceal a Centennial-frame or similar revolver.

 

[ChaoSS]

Carrying a gun openly in a holster can not be considered brandishing, unless your state says you can't carry a gun openly on your own property. (I don't know if any of them do)

A shotgun carried in the crook of the arm, pointed at the ground, is not exactly uncommon in rural communities, and it would be hard to say that it is brandishing. If you have a sling, carrying it with the sling is probably best.


You could even talk to your sheriff and ask what is acceptable, but either of those two options seem very acceptable.