'Breaking Wrist Upwards' How to resove this?

[Josh45]

I went to the range yesterday to do some testing with some reloads I had for my Ruger GP-100 3'BBL that I had made the day before. I was trying to test for accuracy but I can't seem to get this under control.

I understand that a .357 Magnum is a powerful round and has quite a kick behind it So, I tried a few different powders in it to see if I can help the recoil issue.

Thinking maybe a powder like BullsEye, Herco or Power Pistol may have been a little easier on the recoil when I used them proved not to be the case. Each time I tested the next load, They all had one thing in common.

They were all out of the rings towards the top. Looking at the diagnostic chart is says Im breaking my wrist upwards and can only think that it is because of the recoil.

The charge for those three powders I listed were all starting loads out of the Lee Manual Second Edition.

So my question is, How do I resolve this issue? Do I just need more practice or am I not gripping hard enough? Any help would be appreciated on this. :banghead:

 

[JohnKSa]

What size groups are you getting, and at what distances?

If you're getting good groups, it might just be that the sights are off.

If the shots aren't grouping well, then the problem is probably recoil anticipation. The cure is lots of dryfire practice, or practice with a low-recoiling pistol to get your system trained not to flinch. Double up on hearing protection (use both plugs & muffs) if you're at an indoor range to help eliminate the effects of muzzle blast.

 

[Josh45]

The grouping aren't to bad really. I was thinking the sights could be off because while at the range, I shot the new 1911 I got and it put plenty of holes in the 9 and 10 ring.

The distance is only about 7 ft. I wanted to test for 7 ft, 14 ft and 21 ft.
I didn't have enough time and I ran out of ammo anyways.
So all the shooting was done at 7 ft.

All the shots are out of the rings toward the top, Somewhat to the left. Still close to top center.

This revolver has fixed sights for that matter

 

[Hk Dan]

No, probably not it. The bullet is 30 feet downrange before the gun starts to recoil. You may be looking at the target trying to find the hole just begore you shoot, though, It's something like that.

 

[Josh45]

Right before I shoot,

I make sure my grip is firm with both hands. Then I try to line up my sights with the bullseye on the paper. Using the first part of my finger ( If that makes sense to you ),
I pull the trigger without trying to jerk it or anything of that sort.

This happens in Single Action and in Double Action. Altho, It's a tad more sloppier in DA

 

[Ol` Joe]

Low velocity loads such as the starting loads you say you are using often go high due to lag time in the barrel under recoil. This is readily apparent if you compare a light fast bullet to a slow heavy one under the same conditions.
Up the charge and I bet the POI comes down some.

 

[Josh45]

Ol Joe,

I am using a 158 GR FP Berrys Plated bullet. I have also used 2400 with 11.5 Gr and a WSPM primer as well as a 14.0 charge with the same bullet with a SPP ( not magnum ) and had the same effects.

When I first bought this gun, I shot factory 38 Spcl loads 130 GR and I shot it in the same area as Im describing now.

 

[JohnKSa]

The grouping aren't to bad really. ... The distance is only about 7 ft.

At 7 ft, you should be getting more or less single hole groups if you're shooting slowly. And at that range, even if the sights are off, they should be pretty close to on target unless the sights are REALLY badly off.

Low velocity loads such as the starting loads you say you are using often go high due to lag time in the barrel under recoil.

True, but at 7ft, the point of impact difference due to those effects are small.

I am using a 158 GR FP Berrys Plated bullet. I have also used 2400 with 11.5 Gr and a WSPM primer as well as a 14.0 charge with the same bullet with a SPP ( not magnum ) and had the same effects.

At longer ranges, shooting from a rest, you would see point of impact differences due to the different loadings, but at 7 feet it's going to be hard to detect.

My best guess is that your problem is recoil anticipation. You're flinching before the shot goes of in anticipation of the recoil.

The bullet is 30 feet downrange before the gun starts to recoil.

The gun begins recoiling the instant that the bullet starts moving. The laws of physics, conservation of momentum, in specific, demand it.

The sights on a pistol with any significant recoil are set up to compensate for the muzzle lift generated by the recoil before the bullet exits. In long-barrel pistols chambered in relatively low muzzle velocity loadings, the correction on the sights to compensate for recoil is easily visible.

Here are a couple of photos that make it very plain that the line of the sights, (when aligned) will actually point the bore of the gun downward. By the time the bullet exits, the recoil will have brought the line of the bore upward enough to get the bullet on target.

If you line up the top of the sights with one ruler and use a second ruler lined up to the barrel you will see that the two rulers diverge noticeably. That means that the barrel is obviously pointed downward when the sights are properly aligned for shooting.

The video in the link below is a compilation of several slow-motion videos of firearms being shot. One segment of the video (from 2:13 to 2:37) shows an extreme slow motion closeup shot of the muzzle of a 1911 pistol. It is plainly obvious that the slide/barrel have started to move long before the bullet exits the barrel. There is noticeable movement for 8 or 9 frames of the video before the bullet is visible at the muzzle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-xcqs5NIk

In a normal situation (where the gun is not held firmly against a sturdy rest) that motion would also have involved a bit of muzzle lift in addition to slide movement.

Here's another one. Put it to full screen and stick a post-it note or a bit of tape on your monitor so that it is exactly touching the bottom of the barrel. Now play around with the video until you get it stopped at a point between the gun firing and the bullet exiting the barrel. Look at the barrel and you'll now see some space between the bottom of the barrel and your reference mark demonstrating conclusively that the muzzle has risen prior to the bullet's exit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW93WQ98s-I

And another. If you look at these shotguns being fired, particularly starting about the 8 second mark you'll see that there's a considerable amount of recoil movement before the shot exits the barrel.
http://www.indyarocks.com/videos/Gun...-Motion-335584

 

[Josh45]

John,

Thanks for the helpful video links. I need to try this again and see if a bench rest would make a difference for starters.

 

[JohnKSa]

Sorry, I kind of hijacked the thread. The video links are more to demonstrate that guns actually begin recoiling before the bullet leaves the muzzle than they are to answer any specific question you asked.

You can try shooting the gun from a rest to see if that fixes the problem, or perhaps asking an experienced shooter to take a few shots and see if they experience the same issue. If the shots are still going high then it's an issue with the sights. If not, it's recoil anticipation/flinching.

 

[Josh45]

Its ok, It still helps.

As for another shooter, I have family who goes with me so next trip seems to be there shot with the revolver ( no pun intended )

Other than that I think I could be anticipating the recoil. I guess I will find out

 

[brickeyee]

The bullet is 30 feet downrange before the gun starts to recoil.

Recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving.

You may not notice most of it until the bullet is well down range, but it started as soon as the bullet moved.

 

[Steve C]

So my question is, How do I resolve this issue? Do I just need more practice or am I not gripping hard enough? Any help would be appreciated on this.

Breaking your wrist up can usually be corrected by concentrating on the sight picture and trigger squeeze and allowing yourself to just let the recoil happen rather than trying to assist or fight it. For a DA revolver you should grip the handle tight enough so that the grip doesn't slip or twist in your hand under recoil, instead your hand and arm moves with the pistol under recoil and then brings the sights back on target (follow through).

 

[sugarmaker]

"The bullet is 30 feet downrange before the gun starts to recoil."

Nope. Heavy bullets always shoot higher in a handgun - quite a bit higher, in fact, enough for major sight adjustment in light, heavy caliber guns like a smith 29. The gun has acquired full upward velocity when the bullet leaves the barrel, probably has moved upwards 1/8 inch or more in the millisecond it takes the round to exit. Elevation adjustments must be made for different weights or you're gonna miss some targets.

well grouped but off center shots are often thumb pressure, off center trigger pull, grip location (esp. important with a light, high recoil pistol), lighting (sight picture)

 

[tuj]

How high is your target? Sometimes if you get the target a bit high, there is a tendency to flex the wrist upwards slightly. You want the gun to recoil straight back and keep your wrist locked.

Another good suggestion mentioned is to let someone else shoot the gun or benchrest it and make sure its you not the gun that is shooting high.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Did you really mean you were shooting at 7 feet...that's just over 2 yards away or just 3 feet in front of your muzzle (if you are 6 feet tall). You'd be tearing the target apart with your muzzle blast and it would be covered with powder burns.

It does sound like you are looking at the target over your sights. If you are referring to the common Diagnostic Target to correct your form, 2 things:
1. it isn't applicable at that range...it is meant for 25 yards
2. it isn't applicable if you are shooting while holding the gun in two hands.

Suggestions:
1. Move the target out to at least 5-7 yards
2. Shoot you gun off a rest

Even shooting off-hand (non-supported), I'd expect one ragged hole at that distance with the cheapest ammo available...well inside 2"...if shooting slowly

 

[Hk Dan]

LOLOLOL--I was waiting for one of you "Handgun sights account for barrel rise" people to come by. Shinola. Watch a high speed video, on an auto loader the bullet clearly leaves the barrel before the slide starts to retract, and it's slower to cause barrel rise in a revolver because it has to push the wieght of the entire gun. Light bullets and heavy bullets do not shoot low and high at normal shooting distances--they flat don't. I've checked it.

The reason a lighter bullet strikes lower at 100 yards is because it doesn't retain momentum like a heavier bullet.

Meanwhile, go watch some high speed video. It couldn't be more clear, the bullet is 20-30 feet downrange before the slide starts to move.

 

[BCRider]

Low velocity loads such as the starting loads you say you are using often go high due to lag time in the barrel under recoil. This is readily apparent if you compare a light fast bullet to a slow heavy one under the same conditions.
Up the charge and I bet the POI comes down some.

I strongly suspect that Joe nailed it with this post. Especially since you found that .38Spl hits the target in much the same location.

Starting loads in most magnum listings produce bullet velocities very similar to max load .38Spl's. So it's not surprising that the bullets will impact high on the targets because the bullets do spend more time in the barrel.

The gun you're shooting has fixed sights which are regulated for shooting full or near full power magnum loads of typically 158gn bullets. That being the "classic" choice. Lighter bullets with full charges at a higher velocity will tend to hit lower than the gun's POA.

There's two ways to ge the bullets out of the barrel sooner so they hit lower. One is to up the powder to near full loads as Ol' Joe suggested. The other is to go to a lighter bullet with the same or slightly modified powder loads you have now. Either will result in a faster bullet which exits the muzzle while the gun is lower in the recoil cycle. As a reloader the trick is to play with the bullet weight and powder charge to get a load which works with your sights. A lighter recoil can be had by going with a lighter bullet which will impact at your POA with a medium charge. So a switch to some 125's would likely be in order. If you find that this is still a bit "hard" for general practice and plinking perhaps go down to something like 110gn bullets and use powder charges which again produce impacts at your POA. With lighter 110's you should be down to where the recoil is very mild and much like target wadcutter loads from a .38Spl gun.

 

[tuj]

Slide is just starting to move back, lugs still engaged, bullet still in barrel....

http://www.trippresearch.com/tech/video.html

 

[Destructo6]

Quit looking at the target.

I see this every day: good shooters scoring their targets as they shoot and the rounds start to climb higher and higher.

Stay on that front sight through recoil, get a good trigger reset, pause, then look if you must.

 

[wanderinwalker]

The reason lighter bullets shoot lower is because they get out of the gun faster and generate less recoil. It has nothing to do with retained "momentum" downrange (you're thinking velocity, and handgun bullets all suck at downrange ballistics).

The point people frequently fail to understand is how little movement at the muzzle it takes to make a big change in impact downrange. Sure, the bullet may be out of the barrel before you can perceive the recoil movement starting, but the recoil movement begins as soon as the bullet begins moving forward. I'm trying to remember the numbers right now, but as I recall something like .008" of sight movement on a 28" sight radius rifle gives you 1" of movement at 100-yards. This is magnified with the shorter sight radius of a pistol. (That same movement on a pistol with 8" of sight radius if 1" at 25 yards.)

 

[KodiakBeer]

It's a revolver. Load 3 chambers randomly and leave three empty, spin the cylinder so you have no idea when it's going to fire or not. As soon as you hit an empty chamber, you're going to know what the problem is.

Also, seven FEET, really? Back off to 25 yards if you want to know what's going on.

 

[sugarmaker]

"the bullet is 20-30 feet downrange before the slide starts to move. "

So if we lock the slide so it doesn't move, the gun won't recoil? Watching high speed videos can be misleading. The gun begins recoiling as soon as the bullet moves out of the case and is is fully in motion when the bullet leaves the barrel. Tube time is longer and breech forces are as high or higher with a heavy bullet, which (if there is a net torque moment on the gun, caused by the bore being higher than the hand) results in a small but very important upward angle change when the bullet exits. How much? 6 or so inches at 25 yards going from 180 to 240 grain bullets in a 44 mag.

 

[JohnKSa]

Watch a high speed video, on an auto loader the bullet clearly leaves the barrel before the slide starts to retract.

I not only watched one, I linked to it in my last post to eliminate any remaining doubt.

Here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-xcqs5NIk

Take a look at the sequence starting at 2:13 in the video. The slide clearly starts moving at about 2:18, or a little before, but the bullet isn't visible at the muzzle until about 2:25. There are about 8 or 9 frames of video showing slide/barrel movement before the bullet exits the barrel.

For those who don't want to watch the video, here's a composite picture showing two different frames from the video. One from 2:13 (bottom) and the other from 2:25 when the bullet is first visible at the muzzle (top). Notice how much recoil has moved the slide between the two frames.

 

[BCRider]

Josh, just to further illustrate my point about the loading let me tell you about a little game I play fairly often when I'm shooting my revolvers.

I normally shoot .38Spl but now and then I'll load a row of five .38Spl because the boxes come in nice neat columns of 5 x 10 rounds. Then I'll top it off with a .357Mag round just for giggles. I call this Revolver Roulette After loading all the chambers I'll look up, give the cylinder a spin then stop and close the gun and proceed to shoot. Now at 12'ish yards I can do about a 2 inch group. It could be better but I'm fighting my old guy eyes and nerves so I have to be content with 2 inch groups. But the Mag round will consistently hit about 3 to 3.5 inches below the rest of the group. I was confused by this until a long time shooter just looked at me like I was silly and said "well of course, it's moving faster". And there lays your situation. You're shooting slower than full on magnum rounds which the gun is sighted in for. Get dem boolits moving faster and you'll find the sights are just fine.