Buckshot Vs Magazines

[John Hersh]

Lately I’ve been thinking, in talk about combat shotguns, if loaded magazines would be a limitation. As magazines are commonly carried in containers worn on the chest, they likely would be hit by projectiles in combat, and 12 gauge shot isn’t too good for penetration of hard materials. The main scenario is this: For example, would a standard pellet of 00 buckshot going at 1100-1200 fps have significantly reduced penetration in calibrated 10 percent gelatin if it had to go through a pouch with 2 fully loaded sheet metal AKM magazines first? At what range would the shot become ineffective? Of course angled shots could reduce penetration even more, and this could possibly be another reason why 00 is significantly better in some ways than shot sizes such as #4 and #1. Anyway, I’d like to hear y’alls thoughts on the matter.

 

[jmr40]

I have my doubts that a single 00 pellet would penetrate a magazine to even reach the person behind it.

 

[shoobe01]

Rifles against AK magazines:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...op-bullets-increase-effectiveness-body-armor/

Depends on shot placement. But buckshot is much slower, round lead. I would tend to agree no way it gets through a double stack of them regularly.

Also: torso shots? LOTS of people who wear magazines on their torso have armor right behind and no lead ball is going through a rifle plate so... irrelevant really.

 

[Gun4Fun90]

Also: torso shots? LOTS of people who wear magazines on their torso have armor right behind and no lead ball is going through a rifle plate so... irrelevant really.

Yeah I gotta agree with this the only time I really see anyone with magazines on the chest is because they are wearing some kind of vest or plate carrier with mag pouches on it. I would think most armor and plate that would be of this style would be sufficient to stop 00 on its own

 

[Ranger99]

Draw a bead on their nose

 

[Jack Ryan]

Lately I’ve been thinking, in talk about combat shotguns, if loaded magazines would be a limitation. As magazines are commonly carried in containers worn on the chest, they likely would be hit by projectiles in combat, and 12 gauge shot isn’t too good for penetration of hard materials. The main scenario is this: For example, would a standard pellet of 00 buckshot going at 1100-1200 fps have significantly reduced penetration in calibrated 10 percent gelatin if it had to go through a pouch with 2 fully loaded sheet metal AKM magazines first? At what range would the shot become ineffective? Of course angled shots could reduce penetration even more, and this could possibly be another reason why 00 is significantly better in some ways than shot sizes such as #4 and #1. Anyway, I’d like to hear y’alls thoughts on the matter.

You NEED to shoot some 00 buck with somebody who KNOWS what they are doing instead of soliciting random comments from people who may or may not have ever even fired a shell let alone at any thing close to testing it.

They may not all or even any penetrate or ONE 30 cal ball may penetrate your arm, shoulder or face. But either way if they are all in one spot and on a vest, you can bet the NEXT 12 30 cal balls traveling 1200 fps are going to go in to a VERY soft place before you can get back up.

It all really depends MORE on "What's your other choice?" than it does on the effectiveness of the shotgun.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

00 buck is about 0.33" in diameter and masses at 53.8 grains.

Being that it's low mass, spherical, and lead alloy (mostly), its penetration is going to be seriously limited even at about 1,100 to 1,200 fps (about .22 LR velocities) when it hits anything, like your hypothetical two fully loaded sheet metal AKM magazines.

 

[lemaymiami]

Instead of focusing on what buckshot might not do on impact you really ought to remember that there are very vulnerable spots on any torso that are not likely to be protected at all - even by threat level three body armor…

I won’t elaborate further except to say that a standard riot gun at close quarters is very, very effective… as long as you do your part while aiming where they’re not protected…

Close quarters for me is 15 yards or less…

 

[DustyGmt]

Not totally germane to the topic but sort of in the sense that we are talking about limitations of 00 buck, but I believe that responding officers to the north Hollywood shootout in the late 90's were armed with handguns and their only issued long arm for patrol were 12 gauge shotguns with 00 buck and they were lighting at least one of the perps up multiple times in multiple scuffles throughout the ordeal and basically couldn't put a scratch on em because they were wearing full body Kevlar and were fully kitted out with carriers and spare mags iirc and engaging them at distances of 50ft or more and the buckshot was not up to the task.

I believe it was not very long after that alot of patrol cars were equipped with AR15's, since there were 2 very high profile instances on record in a pretty short amount of time where LEO's were outgunned.....

 

[Ranger99]

Killed this doe dead with one (1) 2 3/4
12 gauge shell with a 00 buck payload
I know it's popular for the writers to
poohpooh at the use of buckshot, but
folks in my region have been killing
animals and some of their fellow citizens
for many years with plain run of the mill
buckshot. I've read news reports of
people settling their affairs just east
of here with buckshot, along with a
few of my own relations.
Most I know of use it for the intended
purpose of taking game animals though.

Buckshot is like everything else, you have
to hit the right spot, and noise doesn't
do anything but make your ears ring

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Instead of focusing on what buckshot might not do on impact you really ought to remember that there are very vulnerable spots on any torso that are not likely to be protected at all - even by threat level three body armor…

I won’t elaborate further except to say that a standard riot gun at close quarters is very, very effective… as long as you do your part while aiming where they’re not protected…

Close quarters for me is 15 yards or less…

I'll say it. Because bad guys use body armor, too.

Body armor protects the major organs within the torso and the cranial region of the head. However, for practical use considerations, that leaves five relatively smaller critical areas not protected which have major arteries passing through them. Those arteries are:

Brachial arteries, subclavian arteries, femoral arteries, and carotid & vertebral arteries.

The 5 points are the legs, the arms, and the neck up next to the torso.

 

[lemaymiami]

That Hollywood shoot-out was filmed and analyzed over and over by everyone in the training community (my community at the time was law enforcement and I was in charge of our training efforts...) - all those years ago. Essentially all the responding officers did what they were trained to do - shoot at center of mass - where those two suicidal bank robbers were heavily armored.... and that didn't work well at all... Remember as well that there were desperate rescue attempts on-going for downed officers and others in the line of fire. Buckshot would have worked just fine is someone had the sense to aim it at their feet... for a start - then their hands....

That incident, as well as a few other striking examples of being under-gunned and sticking to outdated firearms training routines... eventually lead to a change of tactics (not soon enough...) by agencies that actually paid attention and were willing to go to tactics that actually worked... I won't go into it further except to note that my own agency developed an Officer Survival program that worked very well - and we also began to use our SRT (swat) unit for every possible high hazard encounters -when we could plan ahead... The result was a reduced actual casualty rate at such incidents - including a reduction in the times that the perpetrators chose to shoot it out.... Nothing like realizing you're going to be on the losing end, before the balloon goes up...

Of course, since I'm long out of police work (retired 1995) I've watched things go the other way as political forces seem to have managed to greatly diminish the effectiveness of many big city agencies. Law enforcement outfits also seem to have forgotten the hard lessons we learned all those years ago as well - with the inevitable rise in officer casualties... Wish it weren't so...

 

[Jack Ryan]

This is pretty good information on buck shot. Not EVERYTHING but pretty good and I don't agree with it ALL but most of it. IMHO, over penetration is a GOOD thing.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/stuff-you-should-know-about-buckshot-part-1/

Buck shot is NOT for hundreds of yards away other than as suppressive fire so someone can get closer.

Buck shot is for 100 yards max, 50 is WAY better and a few good doses of 00 buck from 25 yards would have cured those bank robbers pretty quick, armor or not.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

If you’re worried about penetration through mags and other gear, just get these:

 

[DustyGmt]

If you’re worried about penetration through mags and other gear, just get these:

View attachment 1046729

Why is their a picture of a big truck on the box, is it to suggest that the slug has the ability to stop a peterbilt? How realistic is this, would a shotgun slug like that really penetrate deep enough for that. I have some of those brenneke slugs....

 

[Dirtybob]

Why is their a picture of a big truck on the box, is it to suggest that the slug has the ability to stop a peterbilt?

perhaps it's supposed to be indicative of the felt recoil...

 

[Riomouse911]

Why is their a picture of a big truck on the box, is it to suggest that the slug has the ability to stop a peterbilt? How realistic is this, would a shotgun slug like that really penetrate deep enough for that. I have some of those brenneke slugs....

It’ll certainly punch a hole through a door or windshield to pop the driver more effectively than a handgun or buckshot will. ( Like the Wisconsin parade a-hole or the religious fanatics using a truck as a weapon, etc.).

Stay safe.

 

[jmorris]

Anyway, I’d like to hear y’alls thoughts on the matter.

Could be fun destroying mags and such testing.

I think anything including a leather jacket full of rolls of pennies would be better than a t shirt or bare skin.

Before I lost a lot of sleep over the matter I would just aim at the head…if someone is dressed up like an “operator.”

 

[mokin]

perhaps it's supposed to be indicative of the felt recoil...

I've shot a lot of poppers with slugs. The way those things go down makes me smile every time. I'm thinking it's more like how they hit.

It’ll certainly punch a hole through a door or windshield to pop the driver more effectively than a handgun or buckshot will. ( Like the Wisconsin parade a-hole or the religious fanatics using a truck as a weapon, etc.).

Stay safe.

A 12 guage slug certainly will penetrate a vehicle door or windshield with plenty of umph left over. But, as with buckshot, I think most slugs will be stopped by body armor.

 

[Riomouse911]

I've shot a lot of poppers with slugs. The way those things go down makes me smile every time. I'm thinking it's more like how they hit.



A 12 guage slug certainly will penetrate a vehicle door or windshield with plenty of umph left over. But, as with buckshot, I think most slugs will be stopped by body armor.

Plates, yes. Soft stuff maybe depending on the slug and remaining velocity/energy….. but man, if it did stop it the impact would still be brutal.

I’ve shot lots of old vests, but never with a slug. I think that’ll be for the next experiment.

Stay safe.

 

[shoobe01]

Forget the details because that's how my brain works, but I recall a couple officers shot with slugs to their Kevlar. One was through the door on a warrant serve. He made it to cover, had to be rescued but survived after surgery.

Now, this and others are often called an armor fail but I always found it an interesting example of how body armor often only /partly/ fails. I think in that last one the two torso hits were only a few inches deep, because the armor still acted as a net. So, bad injury but I have to believe a bit better than an 18.5 mm hole straight through you.

I am assured that hits that are 100% stopped by helmet or plate are still unpleasant, and tend to slow you down for a bit. North Hollywood and... many others, like that one at an IL university in the 70s or so, drugs played an important role. People on some drugs can suffer serious, debilitating injuries (sometimes: fatal just not /yet/) don't lay down in pain like normal folks so you have to kill them or break bones to make them no longer physically able to do things like walk. So, remember your audience. If the threats might be waves of Moro warriors on drugs, that changes it.

 

[Dirtybob]

I've shot a lot of poppers with slugs. The way those things go down makes me smile every time. I'm thinking it's more like how they hit.

Aye, 'felt recoil' was my poor attempt at sarcasm.

 

[lemaymiami]

Lots of mis-information about vehicles that need to be stopped in an emergency... Gunfire will rarely ever "stop a vehicle" -unless you've got military grade heavy weapons on hand... To stop a vehicle you have to stop the operator, period... The problem that every law enforcement agency faces is that if you shoot at a moving vehicle - no matter how successfully - you own anything that happens after the shots are fired.... The most successful "stops" my outfit ever made was when the operator was scared enough by incoming rounds that he (or she...) stopped the vehicle and raised their hands... By the way if there's even one innocent in a vehicle with bad guys, firing a single shot is a terrible risk since bullets to funny things when they impact a vehicle...

Unless the vehicle is armored... standard 12ga slugs will penetrate a car or truck door - no problem - buckshot will penetrate the glass if it's a direct 90 degree impact... at an angle the shot will break the glass but be deflected (at least the first shot...). I've seen evidence though that a standard slug will penetrate both sides of a car's trunk at right angles as well - so if using a vehicle as cover - standing along the side of the trunk isn't your best protection at all if there's incoming 12ga slugs...

As far as being on the receiving end of a rifled slug while wearing soft body armor... Imagine taking a direct strike from a big league pitcher... That's what I've read its like. Happy to say that although I wore body armor for 22 years... it was never tested... Towards the end of my career I always wore armor with a metal shockplate as well. The idea was that it might dissipate some of the blunt force trauma that you'll certainly feel if you take a hit...

 

[Jenrick]

Getting whacked in a soft armor panel with a slug will spread the energy out over a larger area, but you're still looking at broken/cracked bones and bruised or ruptured internal organs. I will completely agree that is still a whole lot better than not having the vest. One drill we used to do with ballistic shields was use a pitching machine to launch 100mph fastballs at the training shields to see how it felt to take a pistol impact. Using a billiard ball at 90 mph is in same range of momentum as most slugs, we never tried that, but I can imagine what it would feel like.