Building a back country /backpacking hunting rifle

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cazwell

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Hey all,

Quick intro. Grew up hunting in MT, primarily with a lever 30-30, 30-40 kraig, .308 and 7mm-08. Haven't hunted in many, many years. Been busy with kids, work and most of my shooting has been AR and pistol via tactical classes.

Oldest son is 8, and he and my wife have been watching hunting shows, and with 4 boys, I want them growing up hunting like I did. Plus I miss it. Live in AZ now, will hunt here and in MT etc.

Ok, I don't want a caliber war, it's all been said, but I do have some very practical, real life user experience questions for you, since I've been out of hunting for so long.

Goals for the rifle I build or buy -

1.) Capable of taking Deer/Elk at reasonable ranges (say deer to 500, Elk to 300-400) I can't see myself shooting further, and back in the day was a decent stalker so can usually close the distance, but AZ and MT can both produce some longer range shots so I do want to be able to push distance a little if needed. Being able to download to coyotes would be cool.

2.) Recoil low enough for woman/10-12 year old to shoot who are new to shooting (wife can run an AR), and for me to do a lot of range time to get the skills back. I can build a remmag or something in the future if needed.

3.) Efficient in a short barrel. I am planning some hunts that will be multi-day backpacking trips and/or lots walking/mountain hiking. I like to hunt that way, so I'd like to be at a 22" barrel. Maybe 24" tops, but prefer shorter.

4.) I am learning to reload, but don't want to HAVE to reload. I would like a caliber that has some reasonable ammo availability (doesn't have to be .270 or .308 type availability, but not super hard to find quality hunting loads either).

Ok, with those basics said, I'm really leaning towards the 7mm08. It ticks all the boxes, good BC and SD bullets available, efficient out of a shorter barrel etc.

That said, I'm open to thoughts. I've considered the following;

.284 Win - this seems like the perfect short action 7mm. A juiced up 7mm08. Few real life QUESTIONS about this round for you guys;
- Is it a hand loaders cartridge? Is there good commercially available ammo?
- How does it do out of short barrel? Efficient like the 7mm08 or does is it handicapped by 22"?
- Recoil?
.280 rem/.280imp - Sweet caliber. It's not a short action but I'm not that concerned, as you can build either to be handy and reasonably light. Seems like the 7mm08 but with a bit more velocity/range in a still light recoiling package.
QUESTIONS
- How much of a handloaders round is this? I've read "I wouldn't have bought one if I didn't reload".
- I'm guessing the .280 needs a 24" barrel to not be handicapped, probably loses it's edge in a 22" or shorter barrel?
6.5x284 - The 6.5's obviously have some impressive numbers and slipper high BC bullets. Same questions as above... needs a longer bbl? I've read it's a barrel burner, but not that concerned. Ammo availability?

Anything else I'm missing? Feel free to throw out a caliber if you think I'm missing a winner.

Ok, next round of questions. I've read that if you buy or ream to a .280 improved chamber or 7mm08AI chamber, that you can still shoot the standard round just fine, but not the other way around.

Presumably that would require a re-zero, but if that's true, why wouldn't everyone get an AI chamber and then be able to fire either? What's the story here?

Thanks!
 
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I don't know what your budget is, but have you looked into something like a Browning BLR 81 lightweight takedown in .30-06?
I think the .30-06 has the knock down power at the ranges/game you're suggesting.
The take down configuration can make for a good pack gun, 22" barrel and ammo options are plentiful.
Recoil might be the biggest issue off of your list.
 
Jerseykris said:
I don't know what your budget is, but have you looked into something like a Browning BLR 81 lightweight takedown in .30-06?
I think the .30-06 has the knock down power at the ranges/game you're suggesting.
The take down configuration can make for a good pack gun, 22" barrel and ammo options are plentiful.
Recoil might be the biggest issue off of your list.
Click to expand...
30-06 doesn't fit the kid friendly recoil parameters.
I would recommend a 6.5. Recoil is light even with heavy for caliber bullets. I have a 260 and 6.5x55. I prefer the 260. If factory ammo is wanted, the Creedmoore is probably the way to go.
 
Capable of taking Deer/Elk at reasonable ranges (say deer to 500, Elk to 300-400) I can't see myself shooting further, and back in the day was a decent stalker so can usually close the distance, but AZ and MT can both produce some longer range shots so I do want to be able to push distance a little if needed.
Click to expand...

I can't see myself taking any shot past 300 yards. Thats a personal limit and about twice as far as I like to shoot at game. For your wife and kids I would get a lightweight rifle in .270 and learn to reload. My bud has shot a 270 since the early 1980s and always used a 150gr bullet. I ended up with two boxes of Remington Green box 130gr loads and we shot some of those. I couldn't believe the difference in recoil. Now the 130s are all he shoots and has killed several deer with them. Learn to reload and load 130gr bullets in the 2800fps range and everyone will be able to use the gun. If I had of known how pleasant a 270 could be to shoot I would never had spent the money on my 243.

You don't have to load the 270 or any other round for that matter to its full potential to have a deadly hunting gun. I load 30-06 rounds with 150gr 30-30 bullets to 2500fps and they are a pussycat to shoot. I sight in 1" high with full power loads and these lighter loads land right in the middle of the bullseye at 100 yards. Any 12 year old kid should be able to shoot those. Good luck with your search.
 
I think you really need two rifles. A full size rifle will have too long a length of pull for the kids to be comfortable to shoot, and a compact will not fit you well.

I would recommend a Tikka T3x compact or Ruger American rifle compact for the kids in 243 or 6.5c.

And for you a Tikka T3x lite or super light in 270 or 7-08 would do nicely for what your looking to do. Best trigger you can get in a factory rifle, superb accuracy, very light weight, and the stock and finish is tough as nails.
 
As far as recoil, the 260 and the 6.5 are definitely kinder on the shoulder, especially for the kids.
But they make low recoil rounds in .30-06 that are effective at 200 yards (i.e. Remington managed recoil) and the kids can use them as a good way to grow into the full strength rounds.
I'm not dissing the .260, 6.5, .270 or any other round, they're all great options.
I'm just suggesting the .30-06 shouldn't be ruled out solely on recoil. It's an effective round the kids can grow into.
 
IMHO: 6.5 Grendel in AR or 6.5 Creedmore in bolt. The 6.5C will be easier to find than .260 Rem or 7-08 in the coming years. Wolf is making 6.5G at very low prices but these are really 2 moa loads so they may fit within your tolerances. Hornady black 6.5G is plenty accurate for your needs and not too expensive. 6.5G shoots well out of an 18-20" bbl and a lightweight AR in 6.5G is not too expensive:

49220170515108pm16socomrifle-3.jpg

https://www.hardenedarms.com/ecProduct_492
 
Elk at 400 yards and low recoiling with a short barrel may be difficult to achieve. You may want to ask this question in the hunting section.
 
I personally think a 7mm-08 Ackley would be cool. PO Ackley designed his improved cartridges so that the parent case would fit in the improved chamber; fire the round and the case comes out in the improved configuration. But it is hand load only after that. You gain some case capacity, thus more velocity (and recoil), and likely some case life, too, as it tends not to stretch as much. However, to take best advantage of an improved cartridge, you'll want a couple of extra inches of barrel, and that works against your short-barrel criterion.

Honestly, I think your desire for a short-barreled rifle with low recoil and your desire to take deer cleanly at 500 yards are at cross purposes. My back woods gun is a Model 7 in .308 with an 18.5-inch barrel. It is lightweight and accurate, but I wouldn't want to push it beyond 300 yards on game.

Edit: I see readyeddy and I were thinking along the same lines; he posted while I was typing.
 
sounds like you need to take a look at the 7mm-08 and 6.5 creedmoor in a ruger american, savage 10, or the tikka t3. I also love the idea of the 280 imp, and with the tikka action you just swap the mag for an -06 one and shorten the bolt stop of a 7mm-08 rifle after the re-chamber. custom rifle for semi-custom cost. so you can start with the rifle, and upgrade it later by re-chambering it. great triggers on all of the above rifles too
 
Jerseykris said:
As far as recoil, the 260 and the 6.5 are definitely kinder on the shoulder, especially for the kids.
But they make low recoil rounds in .30-06 that are effective at 200 yards (i.e. Remington managed recoil) and the kids can use them as a good way to grow into the full strength rounds.
I'm not dissing the .260, 6.5, .270 or any other round, they're all great options.
I'm just suggesting the .30-06 shouldn't be ruled out solely on recoil. It's an effective round the kids can grow into.
Click to expand...
I didn't think of the managed recoil ammo. I was ruined on the 30-06 for a long time when I tried shooting my brother's as a kid. It was a Rem 700 Sporter with 180gr handloads. I will never let my children shoot a gun that doesn't fit them. It will also have loads that are tailored to their liking.
 
Considering the stipulations of lightweight, 400yrd elk capable, kid friendly, then I would build:

7-08, MDT LSS chassis + Magpul UBR2, Stiller Predator, DLC bolt, Jewel HVR trigger, fluted 22" shilen magnum sporter barrel, threaded for KVP linear comp, 4-16x44mm Sig Tango4, Seekins rings. This will be heavy enough with moderated recoil such it won't be too extreme for smaller shooters - and the UBR will give you variable length of pull without extra weight and bulk. BUT! It'll be powerful enough to cleanly take the target species at the desired range without any concessions, and it will be short and light enough to carry on a pack for miles on end, or slide into the scabbard.

I may be biased, but the Seekins Havak PH1 with the McMillan Game Warden stock in 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5 PRC would make a fantastic factory option here too. In either Creed or PRC, it'll be more than enough for the job, and the fluted barrel of the Havak makes it incredibly light for its barrel profile. They come from the factory with Timney 510 triggers, which aren't as good as the Jewell, but are fantastic "hunting triggers." DLC coating on the bolts make them very slick, and the short AW magazines have a nice, low profile for carrying.
 
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I'd go for a M70 Featherweight. Available in 6.5 Creed and 7-08 with a 22" barrel, 6# 12oz. You were thinking about some more exotic cartridges in your OP. My favorite would be 270WSM. 24" 7# 0oz.
 
cazwell said:
Ok, next round of questions. I've read that if you buy or ream to a .280 improved chamber or 7mm08AI chamber, that you can still shoot the standard round just fine, but not the other way around.

Presumably that would require a re-zero, but if that's true, why wouldn't everyone get an AI chamber and then be able to fire either? What's the story here?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can shoot .280 Rem in a .280 AI chamber. You might get marginal interference at the neck shoulder interface but not enough to matter. The .280 AI is an excellent all around hunting cartridge for deer and elk and certainly out to 600 yards. Recoil in a light rifle chambered in .280 AI for a woman and a child will be excessive unless the rifle has a brake.
 
A 308 or 7-08 would be hard to beat. They are ballistic twins. With the best loads in each the 7-08 has 1 ft lb less recoil, drops about 2.5" less and has about 30 ft lbs more energy at 500 yards than 308. A win on paper, but I prefer 308 simply because ammo is everywhere and cheap. Both have enough power for elk to at least 400 yards and smaller game even farther. The 6.5 Creedmoor is in the same category and would be a 3rd option.

You can add another 100 yards of effective range with a long action cartridge like 30-06, 270 or 308, but with about 25% more recoil. If you're going to keep the weight down, less recoil is a good thing. A 30-06 in a light weight mountain rifle will rival 300 WM recoil from a standard weight rifle.

You don't mention budget, but a Tikka out of the box can weigh under 7 lbs scoped if you choose the scope carefully. Probably the best, most accurate light weight rifle you can buy for the money, about $600-$700 depending on blue or SS.

A Kimber will come in under 6 lbs scoped, but cost is $1000-$1100. I have one, and like it. But I personally find it to be just a bit too light to shoot as well. A Tikka is still pretty light, and almost certainly more accurate.

This is my go-to all around rifle. It is a Winchester Extreme Weather in a McMillan Edge stock. Weight is 7b 1/4 lb as pictured. I've since added a heavier scope and weight is now 7 1/2 lbs. I consider this about the ideal weight, not too heavy to carry, but enough weight to shoot well. The rifle is a tack driver. 2013 cohutta 018.JPG
 
Just gotta think outside of the 1950’s wood stock box - traditional stocks only fit one LOP, but there are plenty of non-traditional stocks which are adjustable. Want wood and don’t like aluminum chassis’? Add an adjustable buttplate.

I put a UBR on my Savage Stealth clone. My wingspan is 6’1”, and I run a 14” LOP on most of my wood stock rifles. My son is about to turn 5yrs old, he can comfortably shoulder the rifle on the bench or bipod (stick on cheek riser to get his eye high enough).
 
A cheap method is to have a short stock and put a thick slip-on recoil pad on it. That's what I did with a youth-stocked Model 7 for a number of years.
 
Wow, tons of great responses here, thanks! I'm traveling and reading on my phone but will respond when I'm home. Thanks again for all the suggestions and info!
 
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