Varminterror
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Maybe I misread the title - OP, are you wanting to buy something off of the shelf, or build a rifle for your needs?
Building a back country /backpacking hunting rifle
- Thread starter cazwell
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bannockburn
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Varminterror
I believe the OP said either or: build or buy. I'm kind of thinking like a number of others here suggested that he might be better served by having two rifles; one for him and one for the wife and kids.
I believe the OP said either or: build or buy. I'm kind of thinking like a number of others here suggested that he might be better served by having two rifles; one for him and one for the wife and kids.
You didn't read it wrong, I'm very interested in building a rifle, but I am not opposed to buying a factory rifle either.
I would like better than hunting accuracy out of it. I know lots of successful hunters with 2moa rifles, but I'd like to be .75 moa or better, which I know usually requires custom build our a factory rifle that I then have the action trued, bolt lapped, custom bedding, that kind of thing. So either way it ends up a "build" to some degree.
I really want to work on my rifleman skills, accuracy, long range shooting etc. I don't want to build a rifle for precision matches (yet) because I need a hunting rifle first, but I do want enough accuracy out of it to work my way up to 700-1000 yard sittings in various conditions.
That's part of why I was looking more at 6 and 7mm calibers, just easier to get the higher bc and better sd bullets, specifically for dealing with wind. Drop is pretty easy to dial for.
I like .308 and 30.06, and I know they can do it... and maybe that's the the way to go...but I was looking for flatter shooting, slippery bullets.
I would like better than hunting accuracy out of it. I know lots of successful hunters with 2moa rifles, but I'd like to be .75 moa or better, which I know usually requires custom build our a factory rifle that I then have the action trued, bolt lapped, custom bedding, that kind of thing. So either way it ends up a "build" to some degree.
I really want to work on my rifleman skills, accuracy, long range shooting etc. I don't want to build a rifle for precision matches (yet) because I need a hunting rifle first, but I do want enough accuracy out of it to work my way up to 700-1000 yard sittings in various conditions.
That's part of why I was looking more at 6 and 7mm calibers, just easier to get the higher bc and better sd bullets, specifically for dealing with wind. Drop is pretty easy to dial for.
I like .308 and 30.06, and I know they can do it... and maybe that's the the way to go...but I was looking for flatter shooting, slippery bullets.
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The recoil issue was much more so that I could spend a lot of range time with it. It doesn't have to do double duty for wife/kidsi if that's not feasible.
I would like to be able to put 20-30 down the pipe in a session and not have a sore shoulder or loose teeth.
I also just don't think magnums are all that needed in most cases.
I would like to be able to put 20-30 down the pipe in a session and not have a sore shoulder or loose teeth.
I also just don't think magnums are all that needed in most cases.
Varminterror
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@cazwell - the rifles I mentioned above will deliver what you’re asking - 3/4moa raw precision, 1,000yrd capable, volume-friendly recoil, and 400yrds elk and whitetail. The Seekins technically is a factory rifle, but it’s really a factory assembly of custom parts. The PH1 is far better suited to backcountry hunting than the precision rifle games for which I’m using mine.
As a bit of “BTDT advice” - I personally will never spend another dime having a factory action blue printed. I’ve done so with Remington’s, Mausers, Winchester’s, and Rugers... it’s sunk money. By the time you get the factory action to the same place as a custom action would have started, you will have spent more buying and blueprinting the factory action. I’ll happily buy a custom action for a custom build. The lowest rung I would go on that ladder is a PT&G blueprinted factory action - which runs about $600-700, as opposed to buying a Rem 700 for $300+ and having it blueprinted, new extractor cut, firing pin bushed, bolt stop milled... for $500-1000.
As a bit of “BTDT advice” - I personally will never spend another dime having a factory action blue printed. I’ve done so with Remington’s, Mausers, Winchester’s, and Rugers... it’s sunk money. By the time you get the factory action to the same place as a custom action would have started, you will have spent more buying and blueprinting the factory action. I’ll happily buy a custom action for a custom build. The lowest rung I would go on that ladder is a PT&G blueprinted factory action - which runs about $600-700, as opposed to buying a Rem 700 for $300+ and having it blueprinted, new extractor cut, firing pin bushed, bolt stop milled... for $500-1000.
BWS
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Every shooter is going to approach a rifle "build" a little differently.We have a full-on cabinet/furniture shop yet,really not into Walnut for a HUNTING rifle.While we have a pretty good walnut library (inventory),It sure as heck isn't gonna be wasted out in the rain and elements that are hand N hand with good hunting.
Further,we have a complete machine shop,same thing...... not gonna drag a too nice of rifle out to get trashed in the hunting fields.A factory stainless action/barrel in a B&C hunting stock with a good solid scope gets it done for me.Handloads that have been worked up for that rig,to be run up through the mag.
I like the swing of a 24" brrl,and full neoprene scope covers,synthetic slings.And the best boots that I can afford.Good luck with your project.
Further,we have a complete machine shop,same thing...... not gonna drag a too nice of rifle out to get trashed in the hunting fields.A factory stainless action/barrel in a B&C hunting stock with a good solid scope gets it done for me.Handloads that have been worked up for that rig,to be run up through the mag.
I like the swing of a 24" brrl,and full neoprene scope covers,synthetic slings.And the best boots that I can afford.Good luck with your project.
sage5907
Member
I've shot my share of animals and hunted in the mountains of Colorado several times. My vote goes to something like a Model 70 Winchester featherweight, I wouldn't buy anything smaller than a 7 MM because bigger bullets just work better on larger game. My personal preference would be a 30 caliber but you could load a 7MM-08 down for the wife and kids. A current Model 70 featherweight or extreme weather stainless version is available in 7MM-08.
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Again, thanks for all the info. Lot's of great suggestions, information, insight and personal experience, I appreciate it.
Some follow up questions;
1.) I'm curious as to what weight caps you guys would put on a mountain/backpacking rifle? What do you feel is too heavy for all day hiking with a sling, but also, what is too light? I know this is subjective, but I'm curious. I've heard often that people ended up with a super light rifle scoped, and that the result was a rifle that was really hard to shoot off hand.
2.) On the subject of improved / Ackley improved rounds. If I'm reading correctly, I can shoot .280 rem in a .280 imp chamber. I can shoot standard 7mm08 in a 7mm08AI chamber.
- That's what "fire forming" brass is, correct?
- Is there diminished accuracy when shooting the standard round through an improved chamber/rifle? Hypothetically, I build a rifle in 7mm08 AI. But I don't want to reload or fireform brass all the time. So I buy standard 7mm-08 ammo, in the 140gr range, from different manufacturers to find what the rifle likes best. And sight the rifle in for that round. Can you get MOA or better accuracy out of standard rounds in an improved chamber? If so, it seems like a great way to shoot a more accessible, common round, while holding on to the fired brass and working up loads on the side. Then if I want the extra velocity for an Elk or Moose only hunt, in an area where a little longer of a shot might be needed, I've got the brass and the loads worked up and can switch to the AI/imp rounds and re-zero. IS this correct? Or is this wrongheaded thinking? That would make building a rifle in 7mm08 AI or .280imp much more doable, and less a "hand loaders only" option.
Some follow up questions;
1.) I'm curious as to what weight caps you guys would put on a mountain/backpacking rifle? What do you feel is too heavy for all day hiking with a sling, but also, what is too light? I know this is subjective, but I'm curious. I've heard often that people ended up with a super light rifle scoped, and that the result was a rifle that was really hard to shoot off hand.
2.) On the subject of improved / Ackley improved rounds. If I'm reading correctly, I can shoot .280 rem in a .280 imp chamber. I can shoot standard 7mm08 in a 7mm08AI chamber.
- That's what "fire forming" brass is, correct?
- Is there diminished accuracy when shooting the standard round through an improved chamber/rifle? Hypothetically, I build a rifle in 7mm08 AI. But I don't want to reload or fireform brass all the time. So I buy standard 7mm-08 ammo, in the 140gr range, from different manufacturers to find what the rifle likes best. And sight the rifle in for that round. Can you get MOA or better accuracy out of standard rounds in an improved chamber? If so, it seems like a great way to shoot a more accessible, common round, while holding on to the fired brass and working up loads on the side. Then if I want the extra velocity for an Elk or Moose only hunt, in an area where a little longer of a shot might be needed, I've got the brass and the loads worked up and can switch to the AI/imp rounds and re-zero. IS this correct? Or is this wrongheaded thinking? That would make building a rifle in 7mm08 AI or .280imp much more doable, and less a "hand loaders only" option.
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I hear you, and I've struggled with that exact thought. There have been a couple of Remington 700's, Ruger M77's, Winchester Mod 70 etc come up locally in .280 or 7mm-08 for reasonable prices and I though, dang, maybe I ought to just grab one of those, have my local guy bed the action if needed, and motor on, then spend the extra money on a bench gun for the future.
I'm just not familiar with what kind of accuracy I can expect from that kind of rifle, as well as what accuracy I "need" as a minimum to start practicing my long range shooting skills.
The builds you mentioned look pretty slick. When I first started thinking about this a couple of months ago, I came across the Magpul hunter stock and thought it was pretty cool. Then I discovered Bravo and their KRG stock and nearly bought one. Just wasn't sure I could build it light enough or that it was the best configuration for hunting. I still like that stock though and they offer it in Rem 700 or Tikka t3 action.
https://kineticresearchgroup.com/product/bravo-chassis/
sage5907
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Fire forming cases is usually done with reduced loads. I wouldn't buy full power loads and expect to use them for hunting. Fire forming gets the head space right before using full power loads. I have owned a rifle with an improved chamber and in my opinion the improvement in performance is not worth the effort . Using the great powders that we have today you can get nearly the same performance with a standard chamber. High pressures mean short case life. I have learned that a hunting bullet velocity of 2900 fps really works good and and if I need more power I go to a heavier bullet in a larger caliber again at the 2900 fps velocity.
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Varminterror
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@cazwell
1) I don’t get too persnickety on backpacking rifle weight. My Seekins Havak PH1 in 6 Creed is 7lbs, plus 2.5lbs scope and rings, then about another pound in sling and cheek riser. My Ruger Hawkeye 300wm is just under 11lbs also. But then again, I’m a guy in my mid/late 30’s, 5’10” 200lbs, work out and run and hike regularly, so there’s not a lot of difference in a few pounds for me.
2) I have not owned a 280AI, but with 7-08ai, ignition was unreliable with factory/standard 7-08 loads. For fireforming, I use mid-level Varget loads and jam the bullets about 5 thou. If you’re certain you’ll be shooting factory ammo that often, don’t bother with the AI chamber. I also noticed I lost more brass and had more variability in my fireformed brass when I used factory/standard sized ammo instead of jamming. Accuracy with fireforming loads is typically good, not too far different than full loads, assuming your twist rate is right. Hydroforming brass is another option, to save barrel life.
1) I don’t get too persnickety on backpacking rifle weight. My Seekins Havak PH1 in 6 Creed is 7lbs, plus 2.5lbs scope and rings, then about another pound in sling and cheek riser. My Ruger Hawkeye 300wm is just under 11lbs also. But then again, I’m a guy in my mid/late 30’s, 5’10” 200lbs, work out and run and hike regularly, so there’s not a lot of difference in a few pounds for me.
2) I have not owned a 280AI, but with 7-08ai, ignition was unreliable with factory/standard 7-08 loads. For fireforming, I use mid-level Varget loads and jam the bullets about 5 thou. If you’re certain you’ll be shooting factory ammo that often, don’t bother with the AI chamber. I also noticed I lost more brass and had more variability in my fireformed brass when I used factory/standard sized ammo instead of jamming. Accuracy with fireforming loads is typically good, not too far different than full loads, assuming your twist rate is right. Hydroforming brass is another option, to save barrel life.
someguy2800
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I prefer about 7-8 lbs scoped for a rifle that I'm going to walk a lot with. 10 lbs is about where it becomes a nuisance in my opinion. A good sling helps. I prefer one with a neoprene stretchy pad. My Tikka shoots right at .6 moa and is completely untouched. Factory rifles have come a long way, but if you want to build something to your tastes that's fun too. Perhaps you might want to buy a trued remington 700 receiver, add a remage barrel, trigger, and stock/chassis of your choice.
adcoch1
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6 lbs is as light as I'd ever want in a "real" rifle caliber(308 family or bigger), and I find 7.5-8.5 lbs total to be pretty nice. I hunt rugged mountains when I'm after elk, and having to make a quick 2000 ft elevation adjustment with a heavy rifle really sucks., but I also want it to weigh enough to hold still if my heart rate isn't all the way settled, and I don't want it to end up behind me when I touch it off.
That makes sense, thanks for the real world info. When you say 7.5-8.5 is the nice range for you, is that scoped or without scope?
js8588
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Newtosavage
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Tikka T3x in 7mm-08 was my choice. Like you said, it ticks all the boxes, and is super accurate to boot.
I have a Leupold VX-1 with the LR reticle on mine, and the whole rifle still weighs just under 7 lbs.
I have a Leupold VX-1 with the LR reticle on mine, and the whole rifle still weighs just under 7 lbs.
sage5907
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For a person of average size a rifle, scope, sling, ammo combination with a 22 inch barrel that weighs between 8 1/4 and 8 1/2 pounds works really well even when hunting in the mountains. I know that some people like rifles that are lighter than that because they are easy to carry, but when it comes to making a shot at 300 yards the extra weight really works better. You don't want to flop around like a bobble head dall when you're trying to get the shot off!
adcoch1
Member
With scope and sling, no more than 8.5lbs. I have carried a 10lb rifle and it is still doable, but id rather have more water with me than a heavier rifle. Anything over 10 lbs is just ridiculous for the way I hunt...
larueminati
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To everyone suggesting 6.5 creed, I get that it's cool right now and it's known for "lighter" recoil but did you miss the part about how the OP wanted a short(er) barrel?
IMO, you can't go wrong with .308WIN or 7MM-08. Plenty of bullet selection to get a light recoiling round with plenty of wallop. Any naysayers check out Randy Newburg on youtube, religiously uses 308 & 7mm-08 and takes Elk out to 400. Long action is not necessary.
As far as off the shelf rifles, their are quite a few out there marketed toward this. I was actually just in this market and ended up with a Savage lightweight hunter, came in at 6.4 lbs with the optic (trijicon accupoint). 6.5 lbs is where you want to be, still shoots great but is light in the hand. Points very easy and you can hold it rock steady. Two main Really do your research because alot of the lightweight rifles don't shoot for sh*t, this savage on the other hand shoots lights out. I'm used to sub-moa with the AR platform so I couldn't settle on a 1-2MOA bolt gun, i'd just never get over it.
I checked the Tikka but it wasn't as light as I wanted it to be and I didn't care for the tupperware stock, it's too bad they use a long action for all their platforms. No doubt they are super high quality and shoot phenomenal it just wasn't for my application, if I were looking for a bench shooter i'd definitely get one. If your considering off the shelf under $1,500 let me know and i'll give you the rundown of my research.
IMO, you can't go wrong with .308WIN or 7MM-08. Plenty of bullet selection to get a light recoiling round with plenty of wallop. Any naysayers check out Randy Newburg on youtube, religiously uses 308 & 7mm-08 and takes Elk out to 400. Long action is not necessary.
As far as off the shelf rifles, their are quite a few out there marketed toward this. I was actually just in this market and ended up with a Savage lightweight hunter, came in at 6.4 lbs with the optic (trijicon accupoint). 6.5 lbs is where you want to be, still shoots great but is light in the hand. Points very easy and you can hold it rock steady. Two main Really do your research because alot of the lightweight rifles don't shoot for sh*t, this savage on the other hand shoots lights out. I'm used to sub-moa with the AR platform so I couldn't settle on a 1-2MOA bolt gun, i'd just never get over it.
I checked the Tikka but it wasn't as light as I wanted it to be and I didn't care for the tupperware stock, it's too bad they use a long action for all their platforms. No doubt they are super high quality and shoot phenomenal it just wasn't for my application, if I were looking for a bench shooter i'd definitely get one. If your considering off the shelf under $1,500 let me know and i'll give you the rundown of my research.
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Good info, thanks. I'd love the rundown, I'm definitely trying to get my head around what factory options are out there.
I checked out the rifle. Very nice. Interestingly, it uses a 1/8 twist for 7mm-08. I've read that 1/9 or 1/9.5 is best for the 7mm08, I wonder why they went with 1/8... rifle geared towards heavier bullets I guess?
Hunter86004
Member
Whatever caliber you choose, and since you're getting in to reloading, you might do well to load up some cast bullets with reduced loadings for the kid to shoot at paper. He'll get lots of relatively inexpensive range time and won't be hammered by recoil to the point where he flinches with every shot. I did that with my wife, who was recoil sensitive, and she got her first elk with a 30-06 here in northern Az and never noticed that she fired a 180 grain Sierra. Kinda slipped that one in on her after resighting the rifle.
Hunter86004
Member
I watched a guy teaching his 10-12 year old kid how to shoot a 7mm mag in the prone position. By the third shot, the kid was in tears and dad thought it was funny. A great way to lose a potential hunting buddy.
Say, I see you like the Seekins rings. I want to use them on my .308. They sure are available in a lot of different heights. How does one size these things? PM may be more appropriate, drifting off topic, but if OP is interested as part of his inquiry, then what ever...
Russellc
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