buying a handgun

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johnnylaw53

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I'm in Texas and I was going to buy my wife a new off duty weapon so we went to a gunshow and found what she wanted. Since she was going to carry the weapon I was going to let her fill out the paper work. The guy that was running the table told me that she would have to pay for it since she was buying it. I told her we were married and since Texas is a commuinty state property our money really belong to each other. He said it didn't matter it was the law. Since she didn't have any money on her I asked for her i.D. back which he threw it at us which isnt the point but I'm wondering if he could of just been a ******. I completely understand straw buying and it is against the law. Is this kind of thing a straw buy? anyone have an ideal. thank you

Be Safe
 
AFAIK Texas has no registration.

Buy the gun yourself, YOU fill out the paperwork, then just 'gift' it to her.
If the gun is pretty and pink, just put on your game face.

Problem solved, no on needs to know, its perfectly legal.
 
Your seller was, as you suggested an *******.
I am an ffl here in Arizona & there is no such law in my state,
and unless it was a Texas state law then I'd chalk it up to a
paranoid gun dealer ******* just as you suggested
 
Oh I understand Texas have no registration and how you can gift a weapon but when you buy a weapon even in Texas the paperwork you fill out for the ATF show who purchase the weapon. I was more looking if the federal law goes against the community property law of Texas. I also understand the Federal law trump State law so I guess the thing is maybe the Federal goverment don't back up commuinty property laws and since the money was in my pocket it couldn't be use to buy her weapon. If that's it then that the way it is he could of said the Federal goverment don't accept community property laws and then I would of just handed her the money since it is her's too and we would of moved on to the next table and she could of got it then.
 
The appearance of the transaction was that of a typical straw purchase, regardless of your intentions. If you show the interest in the gun, then have someone else fill out the paperwork, the dealer is justified in assuming there is some disqualifying reason why you're not filling out the paperwork. He doesn't want to get burned by something like this. You should know this going in. That's one reason why I do my gun shopping alone.
 
BTW, this has absolutely nothing to do with community property laws, or whether federal law trumps state law. By arguing stuff like this, you make yourself look even more suspect in the eyes of the dealer. Just fill out the damn paperwork yourself and get on with it.
 
If you buy it for yourself, you fill out the paperwork and pay. If she buys it for herself, she fills out the paperwork and pays.

If you want to buy it for her AS A GIFT, you fill out the paperwork and pay and then give her the gun AS A GIFT when you're done.

The bottom line is that the person who fills out the paperwork also pays, and vice versa.

A dealer isn't going to be happy if you fill out the paperwork and someone else gives him the money because he could be accused of allowing a straw purchase. The "We're married." explanation doesn't cut it because there's nothing in the law that makes an exception and allows straw purchases for a spouse. In fact, it's certainly possible for one spouse to be legally disqualified from purchasing a firearm while the other can still legally purchase guns.

Besides, how does he know you're married unless you give him a marraige certificate? Maybe you're brother and sister, or cousins, or maybe you're just two people who happen to have the same last name and teamed up to do a straw purchase. You could say that's really picking nits, but it's important to remember that this could end up being more than just a minor inconvenience for him if he allows a straw purchase and gets caught. It could cost him his livelihood.

I really don't understand what the big deal was that kept you from filling out the paperwork. You were the purchaser, and the purchaser is the one required to fill out the paperwork. Who is carrying it later is not relevant as long as the transfer occurs legally.
 
Thanks everyone all very good points I can see how it might of make him wonder. I just kinda wish he would of been nicer about it. I was looking at it that we both were purchaser due to the commuinty property in Texas. Shouldn't of tried to get a gun at a gun show anyway. neither one of us carry any weapons that are not in our names. I guess the gun was a bad ideal went to the mall and got her a nice dimond necklass for valintime instead. Come her bitthday I will give her the money and send her to a local dealer to buy her new gun. thank you all.

Be Safe
 
I would guess that dealers in the southwest are pretty on edge with all the fast and furious straw purchase stuff. If I were a dealer I would be looking for ATF stings and making sure all of my transactions were squeaky clean, especially at a gun show. Sounds like you made the right choice in this case.
 
neither one of us carry any weapons that are not in our names.
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There is no state firearms registration in Texas.

There is no federal firearms registration either. The paperwork records the purchase. It it does not convey title or register ownership.

There is no such thing in Texas as a weapon in your name. And at the federal level, there is just the record that you purchased one, not that you own one.
 
And at the federal level, there is just the record that you purchased one, not that you own one.
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There's not even really that unless you've done a multiple purchase or a dealer you've purchased from has gone out of business and sent in his forms. Otherwise the forms stay with the dealer.

And even if the dealer sends the forms in, it's only stored in paper form to be accessed for reverse traces*. It is illegal for the BATF to make a list of gun owners/purchasers using 4473 information.

*In a reverse trace, a gun is traced starting from the manufacturer to the distributor, to the dealer, to the person who filled out the 4473. Obviously for that to happen, Law Enforcement has to either have the gun or fairly detailed information about the gun. As far as I know, there's no legal way for the BATF to run the system the other way to determine what guns a person has purchased. In order to do that, they would have to compile a list of purchasers from the 4473 forms and that is illegal. The only way they could do that would be if the person lived in a state with state mandated registration. Then the BATF could probably access the state registration records. TX has no such records.

LE can also find out if you have a CHL/CCW permit, but in TX (and probably most other states), that wouldn't allow them to find out what guns you own, only that you have a CHL/CCW permit.
 
Not to quibble, but the paperwork is a federal record of purchases even though it is maintained by the dealer, and a paper record is all that I said it was. (ok, maybe a little quibble.)
 
johnnylaw53 said:
I'm in Texas and I was going to buy my wife a new off duty weapon so we went to a gunshow and found what she wanted. Since she was going to carry the weapon I was going to let her fill out the paper work. The guy that was running the table told me that she would have to pay for it since she was buying it. I told her we were married and since Texas is a commuinty state property our money really belong to each other. He said it didn't matter it was the law. Since she didn't have any money on her I asked for her i.D. back which he threw it at us which isnt the point but I'm wondering if he could of just been a ******. I completely understand straw buying and it is against the law. Is this kind of thing a straw buy? anyone have an ideal. thank you
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It's legal to purchase a firearm as a gift.

However, because you are paying for the firearm and another person is doing the 4473/NICS, it would appear to the FFL dealer that you may be attempting a straw purchase (see the MrSmith/MrJones example in quote below).

In the FFL dealers viewpoint, what you did falls under the following scenario...
Person A (a prohibited person) pays for a firearm and Person B (a non-prohibited person) does the 4473/NICS, so that Person A can get the firearm.

Recently (02-08-12 ATF press release), BATFE arrested some people in TX for this type of straw purchasing. Felons getting their non-criminal wives/girlfriends to buy them firearms (Felon pays, significant other does 4473/NICS).

So that may be another thing going through the TX FFL dealer's mind, when he saw you paying for the firearm and your wife doing the 4473/NICS for it.

To make it easier, since you were paying for it, you should have done the 4473/NICS. After recieving the firearm, you hand it over to your wife (which is a legal method of transfer) {see the MrBrown/MrBlack example in the quote below}.


ATF Form 4473 said:
Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.

ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES:
Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.

However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C . § 922(g), (n), or (x).

Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person. you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.
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JohnKSa said:
If you buy it for yourself, you fill out the paperwork and pay. If she buys it for herself, she fills out the paperwork and pays.

If you want to buy it for her AS A GIFT, you fill out the paperwork and pay and then give her the gun AS A GIFT when you're done.

The bottom line is that the person who fills out the paperwork also pays, and vice versa.

A dealer isn't going to be happy if you fill out the paperwork and someone else gives him the money because he could be accused of allowing a straw purchase. The "We're married." explanation doesn't cut it because there's nothing in the law that makes an exception and allows straw purchases for a spouse. In fact, it's certainly possible for one spouse to be legally disqualified from purchasing a firearm while the other can still legally purchase guns.

Besides, how does he know you're married unless you give him a marraige certificate? Maybe you're brother and sister, or cousins, or maybe you're just two people who happen to have the same last name and teamed up to do a straw purchase. You could say that's really picking nits, but it's important to remember that this could end up being more than just a minor inconvenience for him if he allows a straw purchase and gets caught. It could cost him his livelihood.

I really don't understand what the big deal was that kept you from filling out the paperwork. You were the purchaser, and the purchaser is the one required to fill out the paperwork. Who is carrying it later is not relevant as long as the transfer occurs legally.
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Way I see it plenty of gun dealers are wasting time & money as well as possible customers due to their illogical fear of this so-called "straw purchase". The term is a grey area because the ATF has an interest in seeing that no guns are ever sold & every dealer they can confuse into having some fear will sell that many less guns. I never have had this straw purchase fear and I have sold thousands of guns to qualified purchasers for their own use, or even for their significant other's usage. I feel this is due to my comprehending that the whole straw purchase thing is designed to keep guns out of the hands of folks who are not qualified to have them, not the BS reason that is being given in this particular instance. This dealer simply lost the sale, he probably blames the customer for his own lack of understanding just exactly what a legal gun sale is, and therefore he will continue to lose these-type sales in the future, when all he had to do was merely explain that he was uncomfortable accepting the payment from anyone other than the person who filled out the form.
 
...their illogical fear of this so-called "straw purchase".
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It's not illogical, the guidelines are provided by the BATF who also enforces those guidelines. It's actually VERY logical, for dealers who want to remain in business and avoid criminal prosecution.
The term is a grey area...
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It's widely misunderstood, but it is not a "grey area" at all. The BATF goes to great length to explain exactly what constitutes a straw purchase--to the point of even creating video cartoons to help dealers understand.
...all he had to do was merely explain that he was uncomfortable accepting the payment from anyone other than the person who filled out the form.
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Read the first post again. He DID tell them that the person filling out the paperwork would have to be the one to provide payment and the CUSTOMERS refused to comply.
I feel this is due to my comprehending that the whole straw purchase thing is designed to keep guns out of the hands of folks who are not qualified to have them, not the BS reason that is being given in this particular instance.
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Laws are enforced as they are written and as they are currently interpreted by the enforcing agency and the courts, not necessarily as they were originally intended to be enforced.
 
johnnylaw53
buying a handgun
I'm in Texas and I was going to buy my wife a new off duty weapon so we went to a gunshow and found what she wanted. Since she was going to carry the weapon I was going to let her fill out the paper work. The guy that was running the table told me that she would have to pay for it since she was buying it. I told her we were married and since Texas is a commuinty state property our money really belong to each other. He said it didn't matter it was the law. Since she didn't have any money on her I asked for her i.D. back which he threw it at us which isnt the point but I'm wondering if he could of just been a ******. I completely understand straw buying and it is against the law. Is this kind of thing a straw buy? anyone have an ideal. thank you
Click to expand...

Heh, straw buy for your wife who happens to be a LEO? The guy was not knowledgeable and an a-----. Second, like others have said, you could have purchased the gun and gifted it to your wife.
 
He may have thought you and your wife were working for Bloomberg or some other anti gun people and were trying to make an illegal straw purchase to justify closing the 'gunshow loophole'.

He didn't have to be a jerk but I can't blame him for being overly cautious. The federal law is vague and good people can get tripped up easily.
 
JohnKSa said:
It's not illogical, the guidelines are provided by the BATF who also enforces those guidelines. It's actually VERY logical, for dealers who want to remain in business and avoid criminal prosecution.It's widely misunderstood, but it is not a "grey area" at all. The BATF goes to great length to explain exactly what constitutes a straw purchase--to the point of even creating video cartoons to help dealers understand.Read the first post again. He DID tell them that the person filling out the paperwork would have to be the one to provide payment and the CUSTOMERS refused to comply.Laws are enforced as they are written and as they are currently interpreted by the enforcing agency and the courts, not necessarily as they were originally intended to be enforced.
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Funny cause as an FFL for the last 6 years I haven't heard of any of this, secondly funny cause the atf comes to my shop every year to hassle me & therefore I have had plenty of extra chances for those A-holes to tell me every legality on this & every other planet.
 
I ran into that issue in my state where my uncle was going to borrow money from me to buy a cheap rifle, couldn't use my debit card had to go to an ATM.

But if it's husband/wife then her name is on the card correct? if that's the case shouldn't be an issue.
 
if it's husband/wife then her name is on the card correct? if that's the case shouldn't be an issue.
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Actually, each should have their own card with their own name on it. IWC, she probably couldn't use his card, even on a joint account.
 
Ryanxia said:
I ran into that issue in my state where my uncle was going to borrow money from me to buy a cheap rifle, couldn't use my debit card had to go to an ATM.

But if it's husband/wife then her name is on the card correct? if that's the case shouldn't be an issue.
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My ATF liason made me believe that a person was permitted to buy a gun as a gift for a loved one at the very least if they were related. I asked how bout married? Same thing as related. Look this incident should simply serve to document the huge amount of grey area that exists outside the general rule book & other info that I never in 6 years received, apart from the one brochure that prompted my call to my atf rep (for the year, they are changed with each visit).
 
My ATF liason made me believe that a person was permitted to buy a gun as a gift for a loved one at the very least if they were related.
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Yes, this is correct but it has nothing to do with the situation under discussion.

When a gun is legally given as a gift, it goes like this.

The purchaser fills out the form AND pays. Then the purchaser (who completed the 4473 AND paid for the gun) GIVES the gun as a gift to the person receiving the gift. Since it's a gift, no money changes hands. So one person pays, that SAME person fills out the 4473 and a second person receives the gun without having paid for it AND without having filled out the 4473.

This is not the situation under discussion, and here's why. In the situation under discussion, the person providing payment was NOT the person filling out the 4473.

It would have all been perfectly fine if the husband had filled out the form and provided payment and then given the gun to his wife as a gift. It would have all been perfectly fine if the wife had filled out the form and provided payment and kept the gun for herself.

The problem arose when one of them wanted to fill out the form but the other one wanted to pay. I sincerely hope that you, as an FFL, understand that it is not legal for the person providing payment to be different from the person filling out the 4473 and why something like that might cause an FFL to balk.
 
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