You obviously have little clue if any as to what constitutes probable cause for such a seizure. I can name at least a few points of PC from just the scant details given in the article. Think about it maybe you can figure what they are for yourself - here is a clue: PC is often based upon the facts of the particular case combined with facts know about (in this case) previous drug money seizures. That is all I would be at libery to discuss, but that shopuld be enough to get you thinking of at least 4 or 5 points of PC in this case.
Faces of the Drug War: Woman Carrying $47K in Bra at Airport Sues
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Sindawe
Member
More and more, it seems to me that the only way to effectively deal with this kind of abuse of power is not to file a complaint, not to file suit in a court of law, but to deal with these brigands on on the spot, as honest men used to deal with them in years past. 
It turns the magic ink a special color; the trained dog barked at it; its being carred by a black man in an airport. Does that sound about right?
alan
Member
Re that lady with the cash filled bra, and the federal drug fuzz, the latter, unfortunately do not have to prove a "drug nexis", whatever that might turn out to be. All they have to do is grab the money and run. You, or the lady in this case, are required to "prove" the money is not "drug related". Of course, having so done, you still have to get it back from the feds. Lots of luck in/with that.
Who is the head Storm Trooper over at DEA these days?
Who is the head Storm Trooper over at DEA these days?
Sindawe
Member
Yes, at least for the latter example of a black man with money in an airport.
Willie Jones
The freaking dog alerting to "possible contraband" is PC for a search, and if money is found with drug residue, for the money to be seized.
Willie Jones
The freaking dog alerting to "possible contraband" is PC for a search, and if money is found with drug residue, for the money to be seized.
Then tell us DMF, why those who contest seizures have to post a frelling bond to get their day in court? Why does the .gov get to take the assets and the owner of those assets have to sue to get them back?
We lucked out I guess..
Being kind of a "prick-ly" sort of person, if you get my drift, I suppose the wife and I were very fortunate during our foreign adoption.
Twice I carried around $13K, fresh crisp cash, through airport security at TPA and then through Kennedy airport, through France and finally Russia. I did it in a smartcarry holster.
Only at new York was I hassled. I was given 2 "limited pat downs", one right after the other, by 2 different guards, with both of them chattering away explaining what they were doing, waving wands around all my extremities (except the right one). They kept scratching their heads and re-searching me.
Finally I was asked to remove my wedding ring, and a religious article dating from the 12th century on a chain around my neck. I refused on both counts, stating that my religion precluded it, as these were religiously symbolic and part of my convictions, and they were free to inspect them in place.
Then I was asked to retire to a "private room" where they would conduct a more thorough search, and I flatly refused, telling them "I will submit to anything you want, but you're going to have to do it HERE, in front of everyone. If you'd like me to strip and bend over, I can do it right now, right here, but no way am I going into some room with you people. Anything you want, you'll get, but out here in public."
I was then sat down in a chair for 5 minutes while walkie-talkie static and conversation ensued, and finally was allowed to go on my way.
This happened EACH time I went to Russia, only at Kennedy.
Put simply, I could have never gotten away with this returning from Russia. Those people are PROS, ours are clowns, and I don't believe in our case we should equate the two legal systems, or subject ourselves to such blatant abuse by incompetent fascisti.
I bet if the woman didn't wear an underwire, she would never have been caught.
Being kind of a "prick-ly" sort of person, if you get my drift, I suppose the wife and I were very fortunate during our foreign adoption.
Twice I carried around $13K, fresh crisp cash, through airport security at TPA and then through Kennedy airport, through France and finally Russia. I did it in a smartcarry holster.
Only at new York was I hassled. I was given 2 "limited pat downs", one right after the other, by 2 different guards, with both of them chattering away explaining what they were doing, waving wands around all my extremities (except the right one). They kept scratching their heads and re-searching me.
Finally I was asked to remove my wedding ring, and a religious article dating from the 12th century on a chain around my neck. I refused on both counts, stating that my religion precluded it, as these were religiously symbolic and part of my convictions, and they were free to inspect them in place.
Then I was asked to retire to a "private room" where they would conduct a more thorough search, and I flatly refused, telling them "I will submit to anything you want, but you're going to have to do it HERE, in front of everyone. If you'd like me to strip and bend over, I can do it right now, right here, but no way am I going into some room with you people. Anything you want, you'll get, but out here in public."
I was then sat down in a chair for 5 minutes while walkie-talkie static and conversation ensued, and finally was allowed to go on my way.
This happened EACH time I went to Russia, only at Kennedy.
Put simply, I could have never gotten away with this returning from Russia. Those people are PROS, ours are clowns, and I don't believe in our case we should equate the two legal systems, or subject ourselves to such blatant abuse by incompetent fascisti.
I bet if the woman didn't wear an underwire, she would never have been caught.
And those that show up may find that they don't have standing to fight, since it's the money that's been charged (something like United States v. 46,950 dollars in US currency). As a third party, then it becomes your burden to prove the money is actually "yours".
griz
Member
That's the problem. Apparently the only PC they need is to know that the money is there. I realize the intent of the forfeiture laws, I just disagree with the premise. If she commited a crime, arrest her. If you have probable cause to suspect a crime, investigate. But to punish someone for your mere suspicion is just plain wrong.
Just so we're clear, if you think that money was part of a crime, hold it as evidence until the trial. If she is convicted the gov keeps it. If found not guilty or the trial doesn't happen she gets the money back, no matter what the money was for. But to take it and not charge her is theft, "legal" or not.
Sindawe
Member
Ahh, and therein lies the rub. It is not the PERSON that is charged with the crime, but the PROPERTY. And property has no rights. So we see cases like UNITED STATES v. $405,089.23 U.S. CURRENCY.
:banghead:
Cesiumsponge
Member
I'm not agreeing with the actions taken during this entire ordeal...
...but does anyone else find it odd that transporting that much money in a bra as odd?
I would think there are much more comfortable ways of transporting large sums of money. I would be free to do so legally, but I don't think I'd ever walk around with a large quantity of money stuck in my undergarments at an airport.
...but does anyone else find it odd that transporting that much money in a bra as odd?
I would think there are much more comfortable ways of transporting large sums of money. I would be free to do so legally, but I don't think I'd ever walk around with a large quantity of money stuck in my undergarments at an airport.
Crosshair
Member
I hope I'm not the only one who thinks happy thoughts about the special place in hell for some of the people we have governing and controling us. 
Joejojoba111
Member
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Maybe I just know wierdos, but, lol, bras are popular transportation places.
Besides, who are we to talk, we have cell-phone pockets built into our briefs!
Besides, who are we to talk, we have cell-phone pockets built into our briefs!
fjolnirsson
Member
Not really. Women from lower social classes carry money there frequently, IME. In addition, most women tend to think of that particular area as being off limits, even to police officers and the like.
what I find odd, is that someone would find it there. Of course, I shouldn't be surprised, what with groping women being part of TSA procedure these days.
spartacus2002
Member
Maybe she carried the money in a pair of coffee cans in her bra....
armoredman
Member
When I worked armored, I was told ALL $20 will test positive for cocaine. Lovely. Carry only 1s and 100s.... 
NIGHTWATCH
Member
This is the only "War" that I know of where the frontline (our borders) are troopless and the only casualties are civillians.
So this woamn who had over $46 THOUSAND dollars in her bra was from a lower social class. I make darned good money and I do not have anywhere near that much money to shove into my pants.
Then you find it odd that this would be found exceppt that TSA gropes people! Hmm, of course the people who get searched and patted down are not just whiners and complainers trying to sue to make a buck, are they? I would think anyone would be quite happy with the TSA employee who found this money as having done a good job of detectiuon. The money, $46,000, even in all 100's could have easily been replaced with a bomb substantial power, certainly enough to bring down a plane.
As for the PC thing:
She had the money secreted in her bra.
The amount was consistent with money laundering (even if consistent with the amount paid for plastic surgery this constitutes a factor among others to make for PROBABLE Cause)
If going to a doctor to have surgery, most doctors would not accept that much (or even any cash) as payment.
Most people would normally pay with a check.
The route she flew is frequented by people who are smuggling money out of the country to Colombia (whoops didn't you know that).
Then there would be other factors that were not discussed in the article. These could include:
How she paid for and purchased her tickets.
If she appeared nervous at check-in.
Her appearance at the time she was stopped (did she appear nervous right from the start even before being stopped).
The manner in which she answered questions about the money.
Any prior or ogoing investigative facts of which you probably would not be aware (for all you know they followed her from a safe house to the airport - are you telling me that article has all the facts).
There are lots of considerations that could go into probable cause. Remember the DEA is not saying she is guilty, they are saying they have enough PROBABLE cause to effect a seizure.
Of course the DEA agents could have targetted her beause she was Dominican, but wasn't it TSA who found the money. I tend to doubt the Dominican profiling aspect but of course maybe a court will decide otherwise. I also think it possible that a DEA agent asked to see her behind (there are plenty of articles about this on the Internet) and then said she did not need plastic surgery. That agent would be jeopardizing his/her career in doing so, and would stand to lose a lot. Of course it could have happened, but all you have heard is her story so far. Wait to see the reults in court, check the public record of the court proceedings and see what other witnesses say before you damn these guys to Hades. This woman can have her day in court if she decides to try to get the money back.
I have seen enough and made enough currency seizures in my career to also know that smugglers do sometimes try to get their money back from the federal government through legal wrangling such as by way of law suit or through other civil methods. Some of hou seem to think this is far fetched; it is not. They file petition cases all of the time. Usually when push comes to shove they abandon it, but then again for all we know if this the proceeds of drug crimes (and it still could have come from the sale of property and be drug proceeds as in money that was being laundered) then the lady in question may be facing death if she does not get the money back. Couriers have been killed by drug organizations for less than a $46 grand screwup in the past.
This just seems to be another cop basher thread plain and simple. They did their jobs, apaprently did them well, probably had more than enough PC to make the seizure and maybe even an arest, and you guys seemingly just want to berate.
Oh well that is your prerogative, anyone can have an opinion, the above was mine.
All the best,
Glenn B
Glenn
I thought that Elvis had left the building.....
Relax. It appears that a couple of LEOs on this board drink too much coffee. Anyway, this thread isn't about "cop bashing". It's about laws that allow cops to confiscate cash carried by law abiding citizens.
Biker
I thought that Elvis had left the building.....
Relax. It appears that a couple of LEOs on this board drink too much coffee. Anyway, this thread isn't about "cop bashing". It's about laws that allow cops to confiscate cash carried by law abiding citizens.
Biker
fjolnirsson
Member
It'd be nice if this thread didn't get closed for "cop bashing". Maybe if we got back to the topic at hand, which is the seizure of private funds belonging to a citizen. Not actually her "property", as Federal Reserve Notes actually belong to the government, and are merely on loan to the peasants for temporary use.
Glenn, you made a valid point, we don't have al of the facts. However, without those facts, we must discuss the case using the facts we do have. While I will be the first to admit the poor reporting practices and standards of the MSM, I don't have a solution, either. Should we refrain from discussion of current events unless we have somebody from each side of the story who was actually there?
Not what I said at all. I merely noted it was a common practice among lower social classes. I don't know now if women in higher social classes do this, since I don't run in those circles. Perhaps she used to belong to a lower social class. Old habits die hard.
Please don't twist this into a public safety issue. we all know darn well that if somebody wants to take down a plane, the TSA can't stop them. Our "security" is a joke. someone bent on serious mischeif doesn't care about the TSA and their rules. Again, can we discuss the matter at hand, which is not imaginary explosives.
Glenn, you made a valid point, we don't have al of the facts. However, without those facts, we must discuss the case using the facts we do have. While I will be the first to admit the poor reporting practices and standards of the MSM, I don't have a solution, either. Should we refrain from discussion of current events unless we have somebody from each side of the story who was actually there?
Not what I said at all. I merely noted it was a common practice among lower social classes. I don't know now if women in higher social classes do this, since I don't run in those circles. Perhaps she used to belong to a lower social class. Old habits die hard.
Please don't twist this into a public safety issue. we all know darn well that if somebody wants to take down a plane, the TSA can't stop them. Our "security" is a joke. someone bent on serious mischeif doesn't care about the TSA and their rules. Again, can we discuss the matter at hand, which is not imaginary explosives.
ksnecktieman
Member
If we have all the facts this should have been resolved in six hours. A phone call to her city of residence, and a verification by local LEO that she did, or did not sell property, and she should be free to go, with her money. It is wrong if her money is confiscated, and she does NOT go to jail.
I disagree with anyone that sees morally justified probable cause for a seizure here on the information we have been given.
If we have all the facts then some more honest, upstanding, servants of the people have just stepped across the line to the "Jerks, and Bad guy's Team".
The REALLY TERRIBLE part here is that she was probably not hiding the money from an armed robbery attempt. She probably knew that the government would seize her money, if they knew she had it. Because this is not an isolated incident.
I disagree with anyone that sees morally justified probable cause for a seizure here on the information we have been given.
If we have all the facts then some more honest, upstanding, servants of the people have just stepped across the line to the "Jerks, and Bad guy's Team".
The REALLY TERRIBLE part here is that she was probably not hiding the money from an armed robbery attempt. She probably knew that the government would seize her money, if they knew she had it. Because this is not an isolated incident.
BostonGeorge
Member
Glenn:
I am quite positive she was targeted for being Dominican, if it was a nice old white lady carrying around the cash it would be "no problem ma'am."
I don't know where you're from, but if you had ever spent any time in Boston or NYC, you would know that Dominicans being targeted for drugs is pretty much par for the course.
I am Dominican, and my mother doesn't trust banks either, nor is she a member of a cartel.
There are alot of "routes" going out of Texas, she could be on her way anywhere in the country.
Do you really think that she was transporting less than 50K to Colombia? Thats not very much money at all.
I grew up in Jamaica Plain, and I will tell you that if she had bought property in the early nineties when they were shooting every night, and sold it recently, she very well may be a millionaire.
I am quite positive she was targeted for being Dominican, if it was a nice old white lady carrying around the cash it would be "no problem ma'am."
I don't know where you're from, but if you had ever spent any time in Boston or NYC, you would know that Dominicans being targeted for drugs is pretty much par for the course.
I am Dominican, and my mother doesn't trust banks either, nor is she a member of a cartel.
There are alot of "routes" going out of Texas, she could be on her way anywhere in the country.
Do you really think that she was transporting less than 50K to Colombia? Thats not very much money at all.
I grew up in Jamaica Plain, and I will tell you that if she had bought property in the early nineties when they were shooting every night, and sold it recently, she very well may be a millionaire.
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