Buying a suppressor; questions.

[nopants]

Im looking to buy a suppressor pretty soon and have been doing research on it. They are legal to own and use where I live.

I am aware that I need to fill out a Form 4 and send it in. On this form, there are a couple of ways to fill it out, one way is to set up a trust and do it that way, the other is to do it through my own name.

What are the benefits of doing it through a trust? I already have an operating LLC. Could my LLC act in the same manner as a trust?

I need to wait for the form to come back before taking possession of the suppressor. Is the company that I purchase it from ok with this? I would assume that each sale requires this form to be processed and that they are used to it?

If I own a suppressed firearm, can other people shoot it at the range, under my supervision?

Edit: Nevermind. I think I found pretty much all of my answers here:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/10/why-do-i-need-an-nfa-firearms.html
I dont see a way to delete this post.

 

[kingpin008]

Welcome to THR!

You might want to do a search in the various sub-sections here, this exact subject has been discussed many, many times in the past. I'm quite sure all your questions have already been thoroughly answered.

Good luck!

 

[Ranb]

You can use the Corp to own the silencer for you. One of the advatages is that you do not have to obtain the local sheriff's signature on the ATF form 4, or supply finger prints or photos. I make silencers on ATF form 1's, own some personally and others through a trust.

Typically you go to the dealer and pay for the silencer. The dealer will assist you in filling out the ATF form 4 and form 5330.20. Send in the forms along with the tax check and when it is sent back approved you pick it up from the dealer. While all of the adult American trustees can possess a silencer owned by a trust, I am not sure how corporate officers are designated to take control of property owned by the Corp.

As long as you are present, others can use the silencer.

Ranb

 

[nopants]

Ranb - The site listed above says that:

Co-owners and Authorized Users
If an individual purchases Title II firearms then he or she is the only one permitted to use or have access the firearms. Many people incorrectly believe that it is ok to let others use their NFA firearms when in their presence. However, the NFA would consider this a transfer and be a violation of the law.

I was under the impression that a suppressor was Title 2, and fell under this law. Am I wrong? One of the benefits of the trust is that you can list several people (wife, kids, etc) as members, and they can all use the item.

 

[Sam1911]

I'd like to see some back-up for the quote listed above. I have seen many (probably thousands) of NFA weapons and items lent (in the owner's presence), rented, shared, etc, and have never seen any reason to feel that this isn't perfectly legal.

It would put quite a damper on events like the Knob Creek shoots and other such activities if no one but the registered owner's hands could be on the weapon.

-Sam

 

[Bubbles]

Find a Class 3 dealer near you and have him walk you through the process. If your local CLEO signs off on Form 4's, IMO that's the best way to own an NFA firearm since you don't have to deal with maintaining an LLC or trust over the years, especially if you relocate across state lines as that adds additional paperwork headaches and expense.

As for this statement:

If an individual purchases Title II firearms then he or she is the only one permitted to use or have access the firearms. Many people incorrectly believe that it is ok to let others use their NFA firearms when in their presence. However, the NFA would consider this a transfer and be a violation of the law.

News to me, and we rent firearms, including NFA goodies. So do many other FFL's.

 

[CoRoMo]

I've read every thread, ever created in this subforum, with the word 'trust' in the title. The only thing I've been able to conclude is that I'd prefer to form a trust for all future title II items.

The rest of the information here, in regards to drafting your own trust is so subjective, contradictory, and dubious that you'll be lucky to understand a bit of it.

One thing I know:
The Quicken Willmaker software costs less than what my local CLEO charges to process the form 4 and do the fingerprints. The only question is whether to pay several hundred dollars to a lawyer to do something that you can do for next to nothing.

But of course, nobody is capable of drafting their own trust without the ATF coming in through their windows at night to drag their children off to Gitmo.

 

[divemedic]

Whatever you do, do not use the same LLC or trust for your NFA items as you use for anything else. You do not want your NFA items ties to your business, for example. What if your business is sued? What happens when you retire? Better to keep them separated.

I paid an attorney to do my trust. It wasn't much, and he guaranteed me that if there was a problem with the trust itself, he would defend it in court. See if you can get an attorney to give you a guarantee like that.

 

[Ranb]

I was under the impression that a suppressor was Title 2, and fell under this law. Am I wrong? One of the benefits of the trust is that you can list several people (wife, kids, etc) as members, and they can all use the item.

Silencers are title 2 and are regulated by NFA law. All of the trustees in the trust can take possession of any property in the trust as long as it so indicates. Just make sure they are 18 and up and allowed to own a gun.

I think the above claim that persons that do not own the title 2 weapon can not use while the owner is around is wrong. Or else all those places that advertise machine guns for rent would be out of business.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

I paid an attorney to do my trust. It wasn't much, and he guaranteed me that if there was a problem with the trust itself, he would defend it in court. See if you can get an attorney to give you a guarantee like that.

How much if I may ask? The lowest I was quoted was $600. I did not ask about a guarantee as he was in another state and I could not find a local lawyer to even discuss making a trust for title 2 weapons.

Ranb

 

[divemedic]

It was $375

The reason you are having a problem finding a lawyer in WA that will do NFA trusts is that most NFA weapons are illegal in WA. I think you can own destructive devices and AOWs, and that is all:

Currently, if you follow federal law, you are allowed by Washington State law to own a can. You may also mount them on functional firearms. However, and here's the strange part, you may not actually fire any bullets through one. See RCW 9.41.250(1)(c).

Also, AFAIK: according to RCW 9.41.190:

"It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle."

 

[CoRoMo]

...if there was a problem with the trust itself, he would defend it in court.

At no charge?
Because I'm sure I could get a lawyer to defend a hand written in crayon living trust if I paid him to do so.

 

[Ranb]

The reason you are having a problem finding a lawyer in WA that will do NFA trusts is that most NFA weapons are illegal in WA.

I am familiar with WA law on NFA stuff. I make silencers as a hobby and have been trying without success to get the silencer bills (to make registered ones legal to use) in committee to make it to the house floor in Olympia. Unfortunately both of the Judiciary chairmen are anti gun freaks who think any anti-gun bill deserves a chance and sit on most of the pro-gun ones unless there is lots of attention on them. I bring my cans with whenever to go to a more friendly state, that is the only time I can enjoy them.

Most of the lawyers I called near me said they knew nothing of NFA law or were too busy with bankruptcies.

Ranb