Buying advice for me & my employees

[Mr Gunsmith]

Hello all.

I've lurked around these forums for some time now, 6-7 months at least, & it's time I get off the sidelines & participate. There seems to be quite a resourceful group that is active here so it seems a good place to get advice. So here goes...

I recently purchased a small community grocery store nearby in a tiny resort town here in Western NC. It was a long time coming & I've dropped a pretty penny of family resources into it. But I'm happy to report it's profitable & with hard work & good fortune I can have it to hand down to my kids. Well, if the gov't regulators don't completely cripple small business but that's another discussion for another day.

So counting myself & my 2 older kids who I am making work regularly, I have 3 full time employees & 2 part time employees. Now bearing in mind this is a resort community & for about 4 months out of the yr we have only the locals in town, our police dept (such as it is) is staffed by only 9 dedicated members. My store is slightly off the beaten path & I've been approached by the police chief himself urging me to be taking precautions for our safety. We have Interstate 40 within 2 directions from the store no more than 15 miles either way. Our police couldn't respond in time to an emergency & they openly admit it as I'm just outside the town limits & the criminals have 2 effective escape routes. Crime isn't a major factor, but it happened just recently that a handful of burglaries in nearby businesses occurred. My store is open late since I'm effectively the only place for the local residents to get gas & the closest chain grocery store is over 25 miles away. I think you are starting to get the layout of the situation.

I want my employees to be safe. I personally carry a Beretta PX4 9mm that I openly wear when in the store in a hip holster. But I'm not there every hr of the day & we are open 7 days a week. I want my employees to be safe when I'm not there. My wife has on occasion taken a shift & I leave the gun with her. She is quite capable of using it too. I'm willing to even pay for the firearms & the appropriate licensing & training for my employees. NC is an open carry state & I practice that discipline daily. I want the message to be clear that in my business we serve our customers needs & not suffer fools gladly. So what to buy & who to buy it for?

Oh just for some further data. My store is roughly 120 feet along all 4 walls corner to corner with a full service deli/cafe in the rear. I have multiple live security cameras that back up to a 48 hr DVR with corner mirrors as well. I mention this because I'm sure certain gun calipers could be effective inside & others may be overkill. I've openly discussed this with everybody & they are all comfortable with getting & wearing a firearm as well as being properly trained for it.

So there you have it. I've seen so much conflicting data on a .45 vs 9mm vs .40 S&W etc etc etc. Any advice on what to buy for this environment? I'll take any & all suggestions.

Thx in advance.

 

[Skribs]

I just recently made the switch from .40 to 9, but I have to say, if you're issuing them - get a 9, and especially stay away from .45, just for price reasons alone. 9 will definitely get the job done, and its a lot cheaper. As for what would be "overkill" inside...none of your standard service calibers will be overkill compared to each other.

I'm not sure what the rules are regarding arming kids in your state, but make sure before you give anyone under 18 or 21 a gun that you know the law. Similarly, make sure the training you get everyone includes not only how to use a handgun, but when you legally can use it.

My recommendation would be to arm everyone you think is mentally capable of handling the task, and legally able to be armed. Also, unless they choose something different, I'd get a PX4 for them, too. Similar MOA throughout the staff wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[msrfrog]

maybe a better legal approach would be to reimburse employees for training and a firearm purchase? That way no one can say he gave me this gun and sent me to training. just in case it is used.
I am thinking in the New York sate of mind though. Where if you use your gun here for self defense most likely you will be arrested. You can not even shoot a burglar here unless he/she is actually threatening your life .:banghead:

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

I appreciate that advice. My local gun dealer, I say local but he is actually in Asheville, NC about 40 miles away, has agreed to give me a volume discount if you will. I'll be paying in a lump sum up front so it's a matter of choices. I've also been in contact thx to the same dealer with a shooting club in nearby SC that offers NRA endorsed training with an indoor & outdoor range so I've made arrangements there as well.

I was thinking along the lines of the PX4 for everybody as well. Like you mention having consistency among everybody can breed familiarity & overall comfort levels. It's been very dependable for me & clearly gets the message across when non locals come into the store & see me wearing it openly. After a brief explanation most people are more than fine with my reasoning & appreciate the fact that I take our safety so seriously.

Oh & as for my 2 older kids I have working there; It's only when their mom or me is present that they are working. I only allow them to do simple things like sweep floors & stock shelves or drink coolers. They aren't of the 'legal' working age yet. However, they are of the age to participate in the family business & learn the value of earning a paycheck. But make no mistake my 14 yr old son & 12 yr old daughter are plenty handy with a 9mm as I have taught them for several yrs.

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

msrfrog;

After what I hear of the tax laws in NY I really am not surprised they are so anti-gun/2nd amendment. I haven't done a check on legally purchasing & transferring ownership here in NC like I'm planning to do. So I'll have to check on our state laws. That is good to keep in mind so thx for the tip.

 

[Skribs]

But make no mistake my 14 yr old son & 12 yr old daughter are plenty handy with a 9mm as I have taught them for several yrs.

Remember, there's a difference between being handy with a 9mm, and being ready to take a life and live with that decision. Not saying they're too young, I'm just saying consider more than just whether they can hit the target good enough before arming them.

 

[Magoo]

I gave up trying to guess exactly where you are, but I can almost guarantee I've caught a trout not too far from your store . Heck, I might well have stopped in.

In the type of community you're in, your attitude towards gun carry by employees will spread quickly. Some wont like it, but most will. You can use the fact that most of the local will like it to your advantage. Posting of anti "Gun Free Zone" signage comes quickly to mind. The support of the Sherrif, Mr. Jones (Sr.), and Mr. Smith (Sr.) [you better know the big family names in the area for all sorts of reasons] will go a looooong way. Local papers always need a story to run...

Local scum will know the local scuttlebut. Local theives aren't likely to target a local business they know to have a reputation of an armed staff. Your protection from random travelers of I-40 would be much more difficult. I think you could make a major dent, however, in the threat from locals.

With that little bit said, are you hiring?

 

[BCRider]

Along with supply firearms and training I'd suggest that you consider some sort of "buzz to enter" system for the wee hours. That way no one comes in that is unexpected. And if the ones that want to come in are strangers that don't look quite right then they can either refuse service or at least will be aware and prepared. Having a camera and good monitor would also let your employees scan them for odd postures or bulges that suggest that they are either packing or hiding something.

It would also be worth considering a drop down lexan window for the evenings as well for the teller's area. Again it won't prevent a determined attacker but it will avoid a sudden over the counter dive and perhaps give you or your empolyee a chance to respond with their own firearm.

It's not JUST about having a gun after all. It's about giving you or yours a chance to evaluate and react and come out on top. After all the first move is the customer/attacker's You and yours will be responding to their actions. So doing something to give you and yours a chance to even or take control of the odds despite starting second seems wise.

 

[TAKtical]

I would look at 9mm glocks, XD's or M&P's. Just my opinion.

 

[hso]

This is more of an overall security issue than just a "what gun" issue.

You need to keep bad people off the property first.

Second, those bad people that come onto the property need to be made to go away because they'll fear they'll be easily identified and have difficulty getting away.

You'll want to set up cameras and alarms so the BGs understand that your store isn't an easy target. Post signs welcoming legal carry.

Third, you need to pick a common caliber, but let each employee pick what fits them best so they're personal individual capabilities are optimized. That may be a 1911 for you and a Glock for her and a CZ for him. Then bring in a trainer to the business and train everyone for that particular environment. Get the most bang for your buck.

 

[Bobson]

So there you have it. I've seen so much conflicting data on a .45 vs 9mm vs .40 S&W etc etc etc. Any advice on what to buy for this environment?

The best advice I can give regarding this particular issuee is to literally ignore the debate. If anything, I'd encourage carrying 9mm if only because it will be easier for a novice shooter to shoot it quickly/accurately, when compared with 40S&W or 45ACP.

While that is a general opinion statement, there's fact to back it up, based on felt recoil and recoil impulse of the two latter calibers. Unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain it properly, but if you're interested in getting all the facts, check in with some of the more knowledgeable members from the Competition subforum; particularly Jim Watson, 9mmepiphany, or Sam1911.

BTW, I mean no insult by suggesting you or your employees are novice shooters. I just meant to say that if its the case, shooting 9mm will help.

If you want specific suggestions, I'd not look any further than the Glock 19 or S&W M&P9. Maybe a couple of each, as the grips are different, and most people have a definite preference of one over the other, depending on the individual's hands.

 

[TAKtical]

Good point HSO. When looking at security systems and cameras, one thing to consider would be I.P. relay systems. They will record and store the footage on an off site server so that if something were to happen to your DVR or recording device, you can still access the footage. Most of these systems will also give you the option to monitor you store via the cameras from a computer or smartphone. If you are arming your employees, they should also have pepper spray because not all dangerous situation will call for the use of a gun. Consider some special pricing or free coffee or donuts to police officers that will put you on good terms with them or encourage them to frequent your store. If police are frequently seen in your store, you are much less likely to become a target.

 

[Bobson]

This has nothing to do with your questions, but I really want to add this. I truly applaud your efforts and interest in looking out for the safety of your employees. While it may seem like a small price to pay after buying the business itself, its a price that I believe a significant number of business owners wouldn't even begin to look into; particularly the formal training, which is very likely to be the most expensive part of your preparation, and also the most rewarding.

So kudos to you, sir. I genuinely hope your business flourishes. Its rare to see this kind of selflessness when it comes to putting one's money where one's mouth is.

ETA: HSO is right. Making yourself a less appealing target (search the forum, and the web, for "target hardening") is probably the best place to start. Its better to prevent a conflict in the first place, than to focus on resolving a conflict later.

 

[sidheshooter]

So kudos to you, sir. I genuinely hope your business flourishes. Its rare to see this kind of selflessness when it comes to putting one's money where one's mouth is.

I was sort of thinking the same thing. I wish some of my old bosses back in the day saw things the same way.

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

@Magoo

We are in Lake Lure. So if you guessed that far you are on the money .

I do have the support of all the major local officials & that goes a long way toward our policy of keeping protection handy. It also helps that my wife is a full time RN in our local hospital & works as the staff nurse in our county jail so most all of our law enforcement knows us by name. Unfortunately I'm not hiring again until I get my deli/cafe finished & fully operational. I'll be hiring then so come on by if your close!

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

I am deeply appreciative of all these responses so far. Most of which I've considered or implemented in some way & a few others I hadn't thought of so kudos & thx all.

I have security cameras that are facing the front door & gas pumps at the store as well as from every corner & above & behind the register. In addition to the corner mirrors I think I got all the angles covered but I have no problem adding more. The security company I have installed monitors on the windows & front/back doors with entry chimes. They also have the ability to do a remote download of the contents of the DVR if we press the panic button that hangs on chain necklace we wear.

@Bobson

I knew when I bought into this business the risks that came with it as far as security of the business & my employees. The down economy also makes opportunists look for the easy target too. I made the decision very early on to upgrade the security & make sure everybody was going to be armed & trained to handle the firearm.

So far I'm burning the midnight oil & putting in the bulk of the hrs here which is to be expected. As long as I'm here & everybody sees that Beretta on my hip & the other plainly visible security measures I think it effectively communicates the message. It's for the few hrs of the day or night I'm not there that have me concerned. In a state like NC that is open carry I feel that if more responsible gun owners would exercise that right the public at large would become more comfortable with firearms & the right to protect & defend their own.

I recently had a conversation with both my brothers-in-law, both of which are law enforcement (one with the NC State Police the other in Erie, PA), & they stressed the fact that law enforcement can't prevent crime but merely show up after the fact. I guess that is the key factor motivating my decision to protect my employees & our livelihood. Oh & all the local police know about my free coffee & a danish/snack to them & they do appreciate that .

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

So I think I've settled on the 9mm for it's practicality & easier to handle properties. The 40 S&W & 45 I think might be overkill as mentioned earlier. That is not to say I don't like them or favor the 9mm. But I have to consider what would be easiest to train with & I think the 9mm is a better fit as well.

Now to consider brand. Holy cow all the choices are overwhelming! If I thought getting vendors & suppliers lined up was a headache this is really going to tax the brain cells. I purchased this Beretta 2 yrs ago on the advice of my dad (that's his little saying I use below) who taught me & my sister to shoot as little tikes ages 6-8. He was always a big fan of Beretta firearms for shotguns (he has a side by side & over/under he shoots sporting clays with) & thus far I have no complaints. It was only my second pistol purchase, a Hi Point 45 being the 1st (I had no trouble with the gun despite Hi Points reputation I'll add). Once I settle on a brand I'll have to figure out an appropriate load to have everybody use. Choices choices my friends.

Oh & to the Mods;

It appears I originally placed this question in the wrong category & it was moved so please do forgive my ignorance. Thx all.

 

[scaatylobo]

Big sign

If all the locals are cool and 'get it' as to gun ownership.

Then I would post a LARGE sign in front that says " you are under ARMED observation at all times on these premises".

That would very likely stop a weary pos traveler from 'trying' your store.

And of course all the observations above as to training and PRACTICE.

As to caliber,I say go with what all shoot ACCURATELY.

I was LEO firearms instr. and now am a FIRM believer in ONLY HITS COUNT.

Cameras,and armed personal are a good idea,but I am not in favor of open carry as 99% are NOT trained in weapon retention.

I can easily disarm all the female [ and more than a few male ] LEO's that I trained as they dont actively train at weapon retention.

The coffee and DOUGHNUTS [ now that is cop food ] are a GREAT idea.

Also try a loud scanner in a back room,then if any suspicious perps come in - the clerk [ or you ] yell out to the "officer" in the back to turn down his radio.

Then the store personal goes back or better yet uses a remote to lower the radio and thanks [ out loud ] the officer.

 

[mole]

I don't know if they still do it, but there was a gas station in a nearby town that also had a little restaurant in it. They gave the police free fountain drinks. This encouraged some officers to stop by regularly and some would even stay there for a while doing paperwork. Just a thought.

 

[metalart]

I would stick with a 9mm... which it seems you have already decided You have many many choices of good firearms. I would recommend a Sig Sauer sp2022. Since you seem to be willing to purchase for everyone, it is a nice gun with a good trigger, eats everything I have loaded it with, and can be found for <$400. also has a backstrap that can be changed out for different sized hands.

 

[Sam1911]

I would add another note of caution here: you may want to invest not just in handgun training for skills, but in more focused training in the the legal issues regarding self-defense and employment as an armed guard.

When you provide weapons and encourage (or require) your employees to be armed, and to "not suffer fools" -- you share the liability for results of their actions. I'd want employees very carefully trained in exactly when they could/should use their weapons and when they must not. Otherwise, you might end up with an employee who draws a weapon on (OR SHOOTS!) a shoplifter or panhandler.

Your relationship as boss with employees puts you in a different situation from some friend just lending/giving a pal a gun with a handshake and a "good luck!" You're going to need to establish and enforce policy.

And you probably need to make your insurance carrier aware of this, and find out what extra insurance you need to carry to protect you and your company in the case of a suit over some employee's actions.

(What gun? What cartridge? Doesn't much matter. Much ado about nothing.)

 

[Hugo]

Be sure you get good, HD quality video from any security cameras and test it in your store (beware lens distortion, wide angle lens distortion, brightness, etc...) before you buy. Fuzzy video you see on the news of a crime is frustratingly useless in identifying criminals. Clear video quickly leads the police to identifying the perp.

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

@Sam1911

I appreciate those sentiments. I already have checked with my insurance carrier on liability issues & that is the reason for the NRA certified training I'll provide. NC state law does allow for 'Stand Your Ground" situations but of course one need only look to Florida for a good example of how things can be misconstrued or blown out of proportion by both parties & the legal system as well. My feeling on it is we are adults here & have a good grasp of responsible use of firearms.

Having discussed this with our local law enforcement I feel comfortable that everyone knows the proper way to handle a shoplifter or somebody who drives off & doesn't pay for gas. I view those sad realities as a cost of doing business. The ones that worry me are the floaters from the nearby interstate that can be in & out without any chance of law enforcement catching them. My business from the interstates nearby, both I40 & I26, can be got to or away from to either TN, VA, or SC in short order. It in fact happened just last yr in nearby Ashville, NC that some armed robbers were using the interstate to make a quick getaway. They were eventually caught after a shooting in a store just off an exit & their car was on camera. That is the scenario I don't want.

 

[Mr Gunsmith]

@Hugo

I spent quite a penny on the upgraded security system with full HD recording to a 48 hr DVR. An unfortunate side effect is once the cameras were installed above the register & behind the counter I got a real good look at just how thin my hair has gotten the last 5 yrs .

But that is another story for another thread.

 

[basicblur]

Just spitballin' here:
1. I don't know that I'd OC - it might be best to keep the BGs guessing.
2. If others in the store are also carrying, I'd think it might be better if they also CC, or if you still OC, I think I'd want co-workers CCing. If the BGs concentrate on you since you're OCing, your CCing co-workers may escape their scrutiny?
3. I've have a lot of former co-worker newbies to SD approach me over the years for recommendations - I usually steer them to the 9mm both for cost, less recoil (some find double-taps easier), and probably most importantly ('specially in the case of a business owner?), a large round count. BG tactics seem to have changed / evolved over the years, and group attacks / robberies seem to have been on the rise. In such a scenario, the extra rounds offered by some 9mm these days could be a potential life saver.
4. Don't know how familiar you are with SD laws, etc, but I'd suggest any number of Massad Ayoob's books (start with In The Gravest Extreme?), and make them available to your interested employees (make your kids read 'em)!

Fer myself, I've tended to go down in caliber over the years as SD ammo has improved, and with evolving BG tactics, when choosing a platform I always compare round count vs. caliber.
Fer instance - I bought an XDSC40 years ago, as back then the XDSC9 held only one more round than the 40 - I figured I'd rather have 9 rounds of 40 than 10 rounds of 9mm. When they redesigned the XDSC9 magazine to hold more rounds, I went from their 40 to their 9.

My main CCW is now an XDSC9 with the short mag to aid in concealment.
I carry the extended mag (malfunctions aside) as I figure should I ever need to reload, I'm going to want all the ammo I can get!

I've also recently started carrying a S&W Shield on the ankle in a DeSantis Die Hard Ankle Rig. While I was looking for something easier to conceal during hot weather, being a business owner, you may be particularly interested in carrying a backup in addition to your primary gun?

Just a few thoughts to mull over...?