C&B Gunsmiths - Repair, Tuning and Conversion Work
- Thread starter arcticap
- Start date
- Status
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,778
All replacement action parts are over-sized and must be fitted . . . how much bigger do you need? Hint: a larger diameter cam will give you the same thing to a point.
Mike
Mike
electricfactory
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2020
- Messages
- 189
Hello Captain,
A little clarification if you don't mind regrding your post below. I'm still trying to decide which conversion cylinder to buy... and whether or not I should buy one at all until there's more commercially made ammo available.
But here's my question; you mention below that your Taylors cylinder,' does NOT fit either of my older (mid-90's) Pietta Remmies and wouldn't without modification, so if you are thinking of converting a Remington, make sure it's a newer one '
In your opinion would that apply to 90's made Uberti Remys? Do you think 90's made Remy's require fitting to run the Taylor's conversion cylinder ? Mine was made in 1993.
A little clarification if you don't mind regrding your post below. I'm still trying to decide which conversion cylinder to buy... and whether or not I should buy one at all until there's more commercially made ammo available.
But here's my question; you mention below that your Taylors cylinder,' does NOT fit either of my older (mid-90's) Pietta Remmies and wouldn't without modification, so if you are thinking of converting a Remington, make sure it's a newer one '
In your opinion would that apply to 90's made Uberti Remys? Do you think 90's made Remy's require fitting to run the Taylor's conversion cylinder ? Mine was made in 1993.
The cam I believe has to be precisely drilled out. I figure that filing down a longer arm would be a much simpler project. A quote from another post I made.
"
The 1858 I know of has the latch dropping about 2/3 the distance from notch to notch leaving a slight drag line in leading to the notch. I do not know of any replica muzzle loader that has perfect cylinder latch lockup out of the box. All of them drop that locking latch somewhere before the locking notch on the cylinder. Some closer some further. This seems to be the norm for the replicas.Now some correction was done
because not even a brand new locking latch had the arms long enough for proper timing so some high tech expert work with a coarse bastard file and mini files were needed after some finesse work done by bashing and pounding the arms with a 2 lb hammer causing massive deformation 
but hey the arms were longer after that. 
After finessing and working on the wrong arm with coarse files and wondering if all was lost it was discovered that the other arm just needed some shaping and angling in the right places. After shaping the mashed pancake to scratched up perfection with some file marks (stress risers ??? I guess I will find out over time) Timing became perfect so it's replacement fluted cylinder should have no problems with obvious drag."Now this turned out great. The locking latch sort of gently drops right into the locking notch at the same time that the trigger locks and the locking latch resets a tiny bit after so tiny that for all intents and purposes all three happen at the same time. I think a hammer stop would be nice though to keep the hand (pawl) from being ragged on but thats another subject. Despite the rough work the action is pretty smooth (locking latch arm was thinned out tthe hammer channel and hammer were smoothed out also) but only time will tell if the locking latch arm will keep going and going.
A replacement locking latch with longer arms or even oversized in general would be a nice part to have around.
Last edited:
45 Dragoon
Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,778
Well, knowing what you are looking for is always a good thing when you are on a mission to correct something a simple as timing a S.A. revolver!! Lol !!!!
The bolt head should drop right at the width of the bolt IN FRONT OF (at minimum) the notch!!! In other words, it should be ON the cyl BEFORE it reaches the notch!! Why in the world do folks think a bolt is supposed to drop perfectly into the notch for lockup?!!! (That is what I gather from your post). Do you think that would be possible at say . . . . fanning speed? Ummmmmm no. Sorry to bust your bubble but a slight mark on the cyl is SUPPOSED to be there (especially if there's no approach!!).
Beating and banging on the arms of a bolt is atrocious!! Who told you to do that?! (MannyCA?!! Haaaa) You don't do that to bolt arms !! This is the first I've EVER heard of that!!
Perfect timing is definable. You have to know what that is before you try to achieve it.
Mike
The bolt head should drop right at the width of the bolt IN FRONT OF (at minimum) the notch!!! In other words, it should be ON the cyl BEFORE it reaches the notch!! Why in the world do folks think a bolt is supposed to drop perfectly into the notch for lockup?!!! (That is what I gather from your post). Do you think that would be possible at say . . . . fanning speed? Ummmmmm no. Sorry to bust your bubble but a slight mark on the cyl is SUPPOSED to be there (especially if there's no approach!!).
Beating and banging on the arms of a bolt is atrocious!! Who told you to do that?! (MannyCA?!! Haaaa) You don't do that to bolt arms !! This is the first I've EVER heard of that!!
Perfect timing is definable. You have to know what that is before you try to achieve it.
Mike
I tried really hard to cause throw by but no matter how fast and hard I pull back the hammer I cannot get it to throw by. It is locking up on time regardless. But I did start to notice some more wear on the edges of the locking notch (both edges) after fanning and vigorously pulling back the hammer. I don't think I want to keep fanning this. I have never fanned it before. If I experience throw by I'll let you guys know but so far it's working.
Dragoon that does sound like good advice about having the locking latch drop right in front of the cylinder locking notch. Being that I can't get this to throw by except only once by putting it on half cock and then manually spinning the cylinder really fast and cocking the hammer while the cylinder was still spinning really fast. I happened only once out of 3 spins. I don't dare do anymore. It seems that this really batters the gun.
No matter how fast I cocked the hammer I could not get it to happen with the cylinder at rest. Would it be a really bad idea to just use it as it is ? I am happy with it. Is it alright or am I just setting myself up for more problems down the road.
I did not have any locking latches with long enough arms, my tools are limited (put the hex shaped body of a steel pin punch between the arms and hammed [whoops I meant hammered a Freudian slip obviously] away of top of a piece of steel,) and the locking latch was dropping way before 1 notch width in front of the slot.
Believe it or not the whole action actually feels really smooth despite the rough work.
I like MannyCA's videos but he did not tell me to do this.
OK I filed the locking latch arm a little more. The result is not perfect but it does drop before the notch. I am happy.
Dragoon that does sound like good advice about having the locking latch drop right in front of the cylinder locking notch. Being that I can't get this to throw by except only once by putting it on half cock and then manually spinning the cylinder really fast and cocking the hammer while the cylinder was still spinning really fast. I happened only once out of 3 spins. I don't dare do anymore. It seems that this really batters the gun.
No matter how fast I cocked the hammer I could not get it to happen with the cylinder at rest. Would it be a really bad idea to just use it as it is ? I am happy with it. Is it alright or am I just setting myself up for more problems down the road.
I did not have any locking latches with long enough arms, my tools are limited (put the hex shaped body of a steel pin punch between the arms and hammed [whoops I meant hammered a Freudian slip obviously] away of top of a piece of steel,) and the locking latch was dropping way before 1 notch width in front of the slot.
Believe it or not the whole action actually feels really smooth despite the rough work.
I like MannyCA's videos but he did not tell me to do this.
OK I filed the locking latch arm a little more. The result is not perfect but it does drop before the notch. I am happy.
Last edited:
Captain*kirk
Member
The cylinders for the Pietta post-CAM/CAD guns are drop-in fit...for those guns (post 2003) but are too long for the earlier 1990s-2002 guns. Of course, you could easily modify them to fit using a piece of 320 grit wet-or-dry on a piece of glass (surface plane) but then they wouldn't fit a post-03 gun without excess cylinder gap.
Taylor's makes a Uberti Remmy cylinder but I can't say if they would be "drop-in" or on which year of manufacture. I would call the Taylor's gunsmiths and have them clarify.
Captain*kirk
Member
The cam I believe has to be precisely drilled out. I figure that filing down a longer arm would be a much simpler project. A quote from another post I made.
"
Now some correction was done
Now this turned out great. The locking latch sort of gently drops right into the locking notch at the same time that the trigger locks and the locking latch resets a tiny bit after so tiny that for all intents and purposes all three happen at the same time. I think a hammer stop would be nice though to keep the hand (pawl) from being ragged on but thats another subject. Despite the rough work the action is pretty smooth (locking latch arm was thinned out tthe hammer channel and hammer were smoothed out also) but only time will tell if the locking latch arm will keep going and going.
A replacement locking latch with longer arms or even oversized in general would be a nice part to have around.
Most of the guns I've played with that had timing issues were a result of: a) worn or improperly positioned hammer cam, or: b) worn out, misshapen or bent bolt legs. With the cost of replacement parts being as inexpensive as they are, why someone would not simply replace the bolt first, and the hammer cam or hammer assembly if needed, is beyond me. After all, new parts are designed to work in harmony and have no wear on them to throw timing off.
Just my 2 cents.
I am curiose concerning Uberti open tip revolvers of current production. It seems the arbors all have to be corrected but are the imperfections consistent in tolerances or do they vary. Do they vary a little a lot or not significantly ? I wonder if simple barrel swaps would work or will the new barrel likely need to adjusted to fit the arbor that has been corrected for the original stock barrel.
Of course one could just make another arbor set screw for the extra barrel and change set screws as needed but simple barrel swaps seem like more fun.
Of course one could just make another arbor set screw for the extra barrel and change set screws as needed but simple barrel swaps seem like more fun.
TheOutlawKid
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2018
- Messages
- 1,480
My experience has been that it varies by gun and date of manufacture...ive seen large gaps like the thickness of what 2 or 3 washers would be and gaps that barely need any adjustment like .005-.007 (about the thickness of a soda can) extra bit of material. Each gun is its own individual.
OP
OP
arcticap
Member
American Finn posted that this Michigan muzzle loading shop does gunsmithing and has a lot of guns and parts.
http://www.kenockeetradinpost.com
http://www.kenockeetradinpost.com
woodnbow
Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,092
I suspect most folks intuition tells them that proper timing would have the bolt dropping late like that. Kuhnhausen covers this in his SAA book.
wattlebuster
Member
I bought one of the avenging angels 1860 3 inch fluted cyl with birds head grip from EMF an before it was shot I sent it to Sergio or aka the outlaw kid an he sent it back all slicked up an ready to make smoke. This is the 3rd 1860 that he has done for me. All perform flawlessly an are smoooooth. If and when I buy another open top its gonna take a trip to Texas
Ugly Sauce
Member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2020
- Messages
- 6,203
That's what I'm talking about.!!!!! Because of the amount of revolvers that come new out of the box, and don't work correctly, it is well worth the extra $$$ to have it tuned and slicked before you ever fire it. If I could do it over, I would have had my 1862 that I recently purchased sent directly to the Kid, (or your choice of tuner/slicker/smith, whomever that may be) and after he was done, send it on to me. If I purchase another revolver, that's what I'll do.
and after he was done, send it on to me. If I purchase another revolver, that's what I'll do.hrt4me
Member
OP
OP
arcticap
Member
I'm pretty sure that he will help you out, but you should send him a private message since he hasn't visited THR since Friday.
To send him a personal message. go to his post and left click on his name, then click on "start a conversation" in the window that pops up.
Your "inbox" will show notification of his reply in the upper right hand corner of the page.
Last edited:
I've been playing with the two Pietta 1860s that I bought last December. One has been plagued with the wedge coming loose. I did a little polishing here and there trying to get enough penetration to get the bump on the end of the spring to pop up solidly.
I was shooting it yesterday and having to tighten the wedge after every cylinder full when in good light I could see daylight under the wedge screw. Aaa-Haaa! That's it!
Well, I looked at the sister gun and it was the same. I pulled out my "Dixie Yank", also a Pietta and it too had the same gap. And the wedge fit nicely. So I looked at what was different. The wedges were different.
The 1860 on top and Dixie Yank on bottom.
I took my Dremel tool and milled the excess rivet cap back to about the edge of the rivet. Now the wedge penetrates enough for the bump on the spring to pop up.
I hope to shoot it this afternoon to see if this has fixed the problem.
I was shooting it yesterday and having to tighten the wedge after every cylinder full when in good light I could see daylight under the wedge screw. Aaa-Haaa! That's it!
Well, I looked at the sister gun and it was the same. I pulled out my "Dixie Yank", also a Pietta and it too had the same gap. And the wedge fit nicely. So I looked at what was different. The wedges were different.
The 1860 on top and Dixie Yank on bottom.
I took my Dremel tool and milled the excess rivet cap back to about the edge of the rivet. Now the wedge penetrates enough for the bump on the spring to pop up.
I hope to shoot it this afternoon to see if this has fixed the problem.
44 Dave
Member
The spring is not expected to catch on the "far side" of the barrel only catch on the screw to prevent the wedge from getting lost in battle.
Pietta is especially bad wilt this screw, being not located exactly right, and yes when you look at your screw you will find that the thread is not run all of the way up.
Pietta is especially bad wilt this screw, being not located exactly right, and yes when you look at your screw you will find that the thread is not run all of the way up.
Thanks,
I'll take the screw out and see how deep the wedge goes in.
I've not got a way figured out how I'd go about reworking the screw to get it to bottom out. I could counter sink the hole carefully. But there are only a few threads so I hate to loose any, I could try to turn off some of the screw above the threads. Better to mess up the cheapest part.
In my insomniac hours, I took on revamping the wedge screw to fit flush with the barrel.
A year ago we were at a big fle market and a vendor there had millions of tools. I picked up this little chuck for $5. It's earned its keep several times over when used with small drill bits and a pin vise or even installing shotgun beads. I clamped the screw so the larger shank portion was exposed.
I put the chuck in my Harbor Freight mini-lathe and used this hobby size hacksaw to cut the screw diameter down to root thread diameter.
Guess what, it didn't work. After several retires, the screw would still stop with the same gap. The hole looked to be tapped through. But I took a grip frame screw that turned out to be the same thread and screwed it into the hole. It bottomed out after about 4 or 5 turns. Hummm? I reversed the screw and filed at least one thread off the length. Checked the screw and made progress. I blacked the point with a Sharplie and ran it in again. Yeap, bottoming out. I took more off the length and the screw was close enough. I can barely see light if I hold it up to a light.
The wedge goes in deeper now. Looks about as deep without the screw. I'll try it later on today when there is daylight and warmer.
A year ago we were at a big fle market and a vendor there had millions of tools. I picked up this little chuck for $5. It's earned its keep several times over when used with small drill bits and a pin vise or even installing shotgun beads. I clamped the screw so the larger shank portion was exposed.
I put the chuck in my Harbor Freight mini-lathe and used this hobby size hacksaw to cut the screw diameter down to root thread diameter.
Guess what, it didn't work. After several retires, the screw would still stop with the same gap. The hole looked to be tapped through. But I took a grip frame screw that turned out to be the same thread and screwed it into the hole. It bottomed out after about 4 or 5 turns. Hummm? I reversed the screw and filed at least one thread off the length. Checked the screw and made progress. I blacked the point with a Sharplie and ran it in again. Yeap, bottoming out. I took more off the length and the screw was close enough. I can barely see light if I hold it up to a light.
The wedge goes in deeper now. Looks about as deep without the screw. I'll try it later on today when there is daylight and warmer.
electricfactory
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2020
- Messages
- 189
Thanks for posting this. I too am having a problem with the poor barrel wedge fit of a new Pietta gun I just recieved. I just yesterday bought another Pietta wedge, am waiting for it to arrive. My wedge is tight fitting in the extreme, just barely catching the retaining spring nub on the other side. I'm hoping the new wedge I ordered will fit better but I must say I'm surprised at this level of fitting from a brand new gun.
Jackrabbit1957
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2018
- Messages
- 2,875
You want the wedge to fit tight, this locks the 2 parts together to make it one solid piece, this is also why the arbor fit is so important. It should be tapped into place and not removable with just finger pressure.
TheOutlawKid
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2018
- Messages
- 1,480
Sorry i havent been on much...im in texas. Not sure if you all been watching the news but texas has been out of power and water etc and is in a state of emergency. Ive also lost power and was affected. But private message and i will respond when i can get on
windini
Member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2020
- Messages
- 177
Hope your situation is tolerable, Kid!
Best of luck to you and yours during this hard time. Looking forward to your future posts.
- Status
