CA Pawnbroker & stolen handgun

[LanceThruster]

Sorry if this is elsewhere in some other thread. I'll continue to look to see if I can find the answer regarding this issue.

Just heard from a co-worker this morning about a situation involving his brother. His brother had a handgun stolen 14 years back. He reported it, has the paperwork on legal ownership, and has done everything by the book.

He got a call recently from LAPD, that the gun was located in a local pawn shop when the owner tried to sell it (running the serial number for transfer flagged it on a stolen registry database). The police confirmed that it was the stolen weapon as well as it was not involved in any crime that they know of, and essentially washed their hands of the whole thing.

The problem is that the pawn broker wants the legal owner to pay the pawn ticket on the weapon ($300). I contacted a retired attorney for general info (he's not allowed to actually give legal advice any longer), who said it depends on CA statute and if the pawn broker exercised reasonable effort to determine if said handgun was stolen (as per whatever the CA law is).

Some of the web searches I've done show that police can confiscate the stolen property and return it to the legal owner regardless of if the pawn broker or some other buyer were out any money (see: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Pawned+And+Gone ).

I'm also going to refer the person in question to this site to set up an account to give further detail if needed, but would be grateful for and information on where/how to resolve this. I've found some info re: the CA Dept. of Justice and firearm/handgun laws and am recommending he contact them regarding the details given, as well as some listings on CA pawnbrokers and gun sales (though it mostly had to do with the selling of the gun by the pawn broker and not much on the initial purchase). The other thing that seems crazy is that the police would only pursue action against the seller of the stolen property (who they have photos of and other ID - whether real or not - don't they take thumb prints too?) if the pawn broker or original owner filed a complaint (which could make them targets for gang retaliation). You'd think the police would realize that and follow-up on their own (especially with all the "guns and crime" hysteria).

Just seems screwy that stolen property can be identified and recovered, and not returned to the legal, rightful owner. I'm very curious to see if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Thanks. More later.

 

[TimRB]

"The police confirmed that it was the stolen weapon as well as it was not involved in any crime that they know of, and essentially washed their hands of the whole thing."

It's a stolen gun. By definition, it was involved in a crime. How can the pawn shop owner claim that he made a reasonable effort to determine that it was stolen when obviously a simple computer check showed that it was? The whole thing sounds fishy to me. I didn't know that the police even had the option of not confiscating stolen guns from whoever possessed them at the moment.

Tim

 

[LanceThruster]

stolen gun

Good point. I missed the obvious.

 

[WardenWolf]

Aren't pawn shops required to report the serial numbers of all firearms they receive to police? They should have caught it at the time of purchase, not at the time of sale. In this case, I would say the pawn shop did something illegal already by not reporting it.

Also, by law, ownership does not change at the time of theft, and all other transactions after that point are false. In other words, the pawn shop may have paid for it, but it's not theirs, and they have no legal claim to it. He can legally demand they hand it over. However, if the pawn shop actually did do everything correctly, then they legitimately did not know and are as much the victim as your friend. Your friend may offer to pay them a lesser amount to compensate them for their loss and as a "finder's fee".

 

[DHJenkins]

Hopefully he didn't file an insurance claim...

 

[TimRB]

"However, if the pawn shop actually did do everything correctly, then they legitimately did not know."

And even then, that means that they did not knowingly receive stolen goods. It does not mean that they own the gun.

Tim

 

[LanceThruster]

Reasonable caution

My former attorney friend said that just because an item is stolen, it does not mean that the pawn broker has to investigate the possibility to any extreme degree. He said it is entirely determined by what the CA statute requires. However, as has been noted, it seems the checking should have been done up front, especially with a handgun involved.

Aren't these computerized databases supposed to be near instantaneous? The funny things seems to be that if it turns up stolen, the pawn broker cannot legally sell it, yet is out the money already. You'd think that being the case, they'd invest more energy checking it out unless they think they can 'shake down' the actual owner once the true ownership is established.

I appreciate the comments that have already been posted and my friend/co-worker will give his brother the link/info tonight to come on over and add what ever details I have left out or offered mistakenly.

I've got all my goods secure in a gun safe but this reminds me to have all the paperwork and serial numbers (and duplicates) centrally located in a safe location as well as some backup copies. I have a few pieces 'grandfathered' from sales way back when as well as a few pieces that, had they just one more unique feature, would have had to been sold back to the state for peanuts under the so-called 'assault weapon' legislation. The criteria were pretty silly considering my US manufactured piece would not have met the rules if it was a foreign manufacturer.

Senators Feinstein and Boxer make me ill (and I vote Dem mostly). Boxer has lead the way on some issues I support, but gun ownership in CA may become an endangered species.

 

[WardenWolf]

Personally, I would probably offer the pawn shop a finder's fee. Not the full price of the pawn ticket, but enough to reduce their losses. It seems the most reasonable thing to do, at least to me.

 

[B00SS]

I can't tell you about The People's Republic of California, but a similar thing happened to me in Texas. I made a court appearance, swore out that it was my stolen property, signed a couple of legal documents and wala, it was mine. The pawn shop then had a claim against the person who sold it to them and the police were looking for that individual also.

 

[ArmedBear]

California requires a 30-day wait when you consign a gun or sell it to a shop. A gun shop cannot resell a used gun for 30 days, if the owner sells it to the shop.

The reason for this is to determine whether the gun is stolen. The pawn shop or gun shop is obligated to try to find out.

There is NO way that I know of, in California, for the pawn broker to resell the gun without finding out that it was stolen -- or being willfully negligent.

 

[LanceThruster]

Finders fee

The finder's fee option sounds reasonable and it may be something he tries. We also thought of the threat of a small claims suit as the pawn broker may have to pay costs if he loses.

Another co-worker/gun rights advocate reminded me of this site which has a lot of info on the sometimes contradictory aspects of CA gun laws.

http://calguns.net/

He also said that sometimes the NRA will get involved (as well as membership giving you some automatic coverage in the case of theft).

Though this didn't happen to me personally, I think I'll come away with a much clearer idea of what to do in a similar situation. It's certainly intriguing to me that such an occurrence is not cut and dried it seems as far as the police are concerned.

 

[ArmedBear]

It's certainly intriguing to me that such an occurrence is not cut and dried it seems as far as the police are concerned.

The LAPD isn't straight up? Who knew?

(I'm not unfamiliar with the area...)

 

[LanceThruster]

LAPD

Yeah, if the firearm stolen belonged to one of them (officially or privately), you know they would be jumping down someone's throat until they got 'satisfaction.'

 

[ArmedBear]

Not metaphorically, either.

 

[shiftyer1]

Laws vary from state to state of course, but what I can tell you of Texas law (being a pawnbroker myself) is......when the police find an item (any item) in my shop that is stolen or may be they first put a hold on it, meaning I can't sell it or give it to ANYONE. Once it's confirmed that it is the right item they confiscate it and eventually it gets back to the original owner. Yes there are crooked pawnbrokers but please don't lump us all in the same basket. As far as California law and procedures I have no clue.

 

[larry starling]

I would just forget about it if the gun is not worth $300 bucks. If worth more and still in decent shape I would attempt to recover it! I don't think I would pay his asking price though. Most Pawn shops pay very little on items the take in on Pawn.....

 

[Yo Mama]

This is fricking nuts. And it's in CA! I thought you couldn't own a gun, but I guess the crooks and pawn shop owner can!

Pawn Shop should give the gun back if they knew what was good for them. I'd really push hard directly with the owner, and not the worker at the counter. It's the owner that will be in court if it goes that far.

I'd let him/her know what's in their near future if they do not give your friend back his property IMMEDIATELY. Shouldn't be a surprise that they have to eat the cost, as they deal in arms, they should know the ramifications.

 

[LanceThruster]

pawnbrokers

Thanks for the input, shiftyer1. I make no assumptions about pawn brokers one way or another. In fact, I'm looking to find a .22 pistol from a pawnshop for target shooting. I used to have a thing about buying firearms used (afraid I'd overpay for crap - still a possibility ;-), but now regret not purchasing a .22 Lugar (or a weapon that looked like one) I saw in a Norwalk pawnshop several years back (I'm hoping I can find a good deal now - you'd think the times are right). I was shooting in the desert recently with a friend's .22 Hi-Standard R-101 9-round revolver and it was sweet. He also inherited from a deceased brother-in-law some .22 match rifles that have a trigger pull so sensitive you can barely rest you finger on it.

I feel bad about the local pawnbroker's predicament but want my friend's brother to get whatever he's legally entitled to. What B00SS said about the way it worked in Texas makes sense and for the life of me don't understand what the problem is here in CA.

 

[NavyLCDR]

He got a call recently from LAPD, that the gun was located in a local pawn shop when the owner tried to sell it (running the serial number for transfer flagged it on a stolen registry database). The police confirmed that it was the stolen weapon as well as it was not involved in any crime that they know of, and essentially washed their hands of the whole thing.

File a separate charge, if you can, against the pawn shop owner for possession of stolen property.

 

[LanceThruster]

Time and effort vs principle

@larry

I agree that at some point it's probably not worth it. However, I do not know if $300 is a good deal regardless or just what the owner (actually, not "owner" but the broker currently in possession of it) wants in order to recoup his costs. That being said, it's more the principle as far as I see it. It's like having your stolen car found on a used car lot and the used car dealer wants to sell it back to you.

Well, f*ck that!

 

[richyoung]

You can thank Shady Sam Wolfenbarger, pawn shop proprieter here in good ol' Lawton, Oklahoma for this little bit of corrupt law. Seems he had a hot car tape deck that the police returned to its rightful owner. Shady Sam filed suit against the Lawton police, claiming he had a "good faith" fiduciary interest in the merchandise - and won! Thus was the end of the doctrine that a "theif can't transfer title".

 

[LanceThruster]

Good faith

My attorney friend had mentioned something along those lines that if the pawnbroker acted in good faith (was shown fraudulent paperwork or did not see anything that made it obvious that the handgun was stolen - like what? a sweaty seller in a damned hurry?!?!), that he was not necessarily liable as far as receiving stolen property.

The example he gave was someone selling electronics out of their car trunk. Though some could think it might be stolen, you couldn't assume that as he just might be selling inferior goods bought wholesale; like many swapmeet vendors do.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What Booos is talking about and what I am surprised Shiftyer1 didn't note is the return of property through magistrates court. The hangup there is that it may take a few weeks to a few months before the court date. The alternative is for the victim to waive that option and pay the pawnbroker the loan or purchase amount.

By waiting for court, it will be free, but some folks won't wait.

If you fail to show for court, but the broker shows, the item can be then legally washed and become the broker's property.

Do they have magistrate's court in CA for such matters?

 

[natman]

California requires a 30-day wait when you consign a gun or sell it to a shop. A gun shop cannot resell a used gun for 30 days, if the owner sells it to the shop.

The reason for this is to determine whether the gun is stolen. The pawn shop or gun shop is obligated to try to find out.

There is NO way that I know of, in California, for the pawn broker to resell the gun without finding out that it was stolen -- or being willfully negligent.

The California gun shop where I work doesn't buy guns outright, but we do take a lot of guns on consignment. We've never waited to offer them for sale.

So I'm skeptical. How, exactly, is the shop supposed to find out whether a gun is stolen, especially with long guns? Can you cite the relevant Penal Code sections?

 

[shiftyer1]

In texas I cannot sell anything I have out right purchased for 21 days. This is to give the police time to see what has come in. A loan is between 2 and 3 months before it goes out for sale. If something appears stolen I will not take it, the same goes for items missing serial numbers. Sony psp's in alot of cases always have the serial numbers obviously worn off from use and I still won't loan on them. As far as the court process, i've never been on the first victims side of the spectrom. We never appear in court but do sign a form requesting restitution from the theif. When it comes it's like 2 dollars a year, not even worth the effort.

If you think about it a pawn shop is no different then a private party sale. The only difference is we loan cash on collateral to someone who needs it and has no other option. If they do not repay the loan we do sell it at a profit so we can stay in business and still eat and provide for the family. The resentment comes from making a profit from someone elses shortfalls.

I do hope the pawnbroker in the op does the right thing and ya'll come to a suitable agreement for both parties. Please remember that both parties got ripped off.