Caliber Comparison: The Swede vs. The King

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Well, my chronograph clocks my favorite 65 gn. V-max load out of my 26" bbl Savage model 12BVSS at 3784 fps average.
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Yike-sa-mowsa! :eek: :)

Yes, the .243 is good for ladies and children....and it's also good for red-blooded American MEN who know what it can do. My dedicated "long trek, lightweight" hunting rifle is a .243 Win (Rossi single shot). I can hump it a long ways and hit what I'm aiming at. It's my poor-man's mountain rifle - will be good for when I get out west for sheep & goats. I love my sporterized Swede in 6.5x55, and it's lightweight in the grand scheme of things, but it's still a bit heavy for hiking up and down steep grades at my age.
 
But my pre-64 model 70 and my M1 Garand came in 30-06.


I will say that software is more important than hardware.
 
Personally, I think it's silly to suggest that a .24 caliber bullet and a .26 caliber bullet are remotely alike in killing power all things equal, or nearly equal. It blows my mind when someone takes two calibers that are this far apart in diameter and compares their "energy" levels. Oh sure, on a broadside standing deer, one's probably not much better than the other. But that only happens on the cover of outdoor magazines. I shot a quartering deer with a 6.5 and a 120 gr Sierra GK, and did it with 100% confidence. Had I been using my Ruger 6mm or a .243, I'd have probaly passed on the shot. You're seriously comparing apples to oranges.
A quick check of the Hornady manual reveals that the 6.5 bullet in question has quite a bit more sectional density which means that if the bullets are similarly constructed and started at close to the same velocity, the 6.5 bullet will outpenetrate the .24 caliber bullet every single time. Not to mention the fact that the 6.5 bullet will of course create a larger wound channel given its larger diameter.

The Swede has a little more energy after 250yds. (but also has a larger bullet which requires more energy to function correctly)
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How in the world does "energy" cause a bullet to function?!?!? Terminal velocity, the construction of the bullet, and the medium it impacts are what cause a bullet to function.
Just my 2¢...

35W
 
Hi "35"...

The energy is integral to the force that causes the bullet to expand and penatrate.

To simplify the comparison of the two cartridges..... let's say the clean killing of the deer requires X force. If the .243 operates with 2X force and the 6.5 Swede operates with 3X force, they are virtually equal because both exceed the force required. There is simply no such thing as "twice as dead".

Same goes for trajectory. If a cartridge is 1.8" low at 300yds or it is 2.4" low at 300yds the difference may be observable on paper but, at 300yds. in the field where the shooter cannot even see a difference of 6/10" and the target is 16" tall, that difference is simply nonexistant.

:cool:
 
The only problem with that is that since both exceed the required ftlbs of energy and end up wasting energy, you need to look at which of the two does a better job of transferring what energy it can, into a wound. Bigger bullet, creates a bigger wound track, more damage, typically holds together better when hitting hard stuff, so then all other things being equal it usually wins. Especially in the field where the "perfect shot" is seldom there. To many variable to automatically assume that you are going to get that perfect shot. I have nothing against a .243, have hunted and shot them myself, I just don't see it as the King.
 
The energy is integral to the force that causes the bullet to expand and penatrate.
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We need a Smiley that's scratching his head in confusion. :D Oh wait....:confused: there...

Energy figures are nothing more than a mathmatical formula that has been used for years as a method of comparing two similar cartridges.

E = m • v2 / (2 • 32.1739 • 7000)

Where E = Energy
v is the velocity of bullet (in feet per second)
m is the mass of bullet (in grains)


For example, energy comparisions of the .243 and the 250 Savage with their respective, like constructed, 100 gr. bullets would be very valid, as would be comparing the energy levels of similar bullets in say a 280 Remington and a 7mm Remington Magnum. In my opinion, the .243 and the 6.5x55 aren't even remotely similar and comparisons of their respective bullets energy levels to one another is an exercise in futility.

Add to that the fact that years ago, some well meaning, yet misinformed nimrod decided one day that deer required "X" ft. lbs. of energy to kill, elk required another amount of energy in order to succumb etc., and the ol' Ballistic Water begins to get quite muddy.

As an example of the invalidity of bullet energy where it concerns killing power, one could compare the energies of two .30 caliber round nose bullets weighing 220 grs. at 100 yds. While both bullets fired at an MV of 2500 fps might have very similar energy figures at 100 yds., if one of the bullets were a softpoint and the other were a FMJ, obviously the softpoint would be a much better killer on thin skinned game, hence comparing the energy levels of thse two bullets would be meaningless.

On this board, I routinely see folks compare bullet energies of the .223 and the 7.62x39. Again, they're incomparable given the disparity in bullet diameters.

..... let's say the clean killing of the deer requires X force.
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Sorry, but game simply doesn't require "X" amount of force to be killed. Game requires the disruption and destruction of their internal organs to be killed. A hole through both lungs is just that...regardless of what "energy" was required to create said hole.
My 2¢ has just increased to 3¢...;)

35W
 
Negative 35 Whelen.

Newton settled this argument a long time ago. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This means the target hits the bullet as hard as the bullet hits the target.

Energy is what causes a bullet to deform. Velocity only determines how fast it deforms.

This makes sense if you think about it. Energy determines the ability to do work. Work is needed to deform the projectile. The deforming projectile displaces tissue. This is how energy is transferred.

So while I agree with you that energy is often over rated indicator of performance, and also share some of your appreciation for bullet diameter, I can not agree with your presumption that energy is irrelevant concerning bullet performance.
 
Energy is what causes a bullet to deform. Velocity only determines how fast it deforms.
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Not necessarily - bullet design has much to do with the deformation as well. Hollow points will deform easier than solid tips, soft bullets will deform easier than jacketed bullets. Some bullets explode with exposure to minimal hydrostatic forces, while others resist, retaining almost their entire weight.

brad
 
Not necessarily - bullet design has much to do with the deformation as well. Hollow points will deform easier than solid tips, soft bullets will deform easier than jacketed bullets. Some bullets explode with exposure to minimal hydrostatic forces, while others resist, retaining almost their entire weight.

brad
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I never said bullet construction wasn't of critical importance. It is.

But if you take two of the exact same bullets--say a 6.5mm 140 gr SPBT of your favorite manufacture, at two different energy levels--say even comparing the same bullet at the muzzle and at 200 yards--the one with the most energy will deform more readily. And this is true regardless of the exact caliber or bullet design we choose.

At higher velocities, bullets expand faster than at slower velocities. But it is still the energy, not the velocity, that causes deformation to occur. It just so happens that the two are difficult to separate because they are related.
 
I enjoy reading Shawnee's 243 threads...

After all he is right, the 243 was a "sleeper" for a looong time...but not anymore, the cat is out of the bag and people are realizing that with todays better bullets, the 243 is no wimpy round.

The biggest advantage I can think of the the "Swede" has over the 243 would be penetration...but either round has plenty out to 400 yards.

I still like my 308 better...;)
 
Fact is, if anyone shoots any deer with a .243 and the deer isn't harvested it is for one (and only one) reason - the shooter made a lousy shot.:what:

Humble Shawnee will submit to the jury that there may be a Freudian reason why so many of the thirty-ought-ego types are so often concerned about inadequete penetration.

:D:D:D
 
Woof +1....and. Shawnee. us thirty-somethings enjoy not only greater penetration. but a larger diameter "wound channel" as well
 
Shawnee making irritating and childish 'thirty ought *****" jokes?

Seriously friend... it was old a month ago.


And I think you meant 'The Swede and The Princess". Because something in the class of the 35 Whelen is like the Hammer of Thor on whitetails, hence... "King".

The 243 is fine if you have delicate shoulders. :neener:
 
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Ill give the .243 the King of Varmint rounds. It will smoke a gopher as far as you can see them. It isn't the perfect deer round though. It may work but it certainly isn't top dog. What a bigger more powerful round gives is the ability to either be a worse shot and still come away with a dead deer or to shoot at a worse angle and still come away with a dead deer. You don't need a bigger round to take deer than a .243. It certainly has the ability to end a deer right now. Even the little .22lr can take a deer with a quality shot. That said hunting has a lot of variables. It is easy at the range to shoot good groups off a rest. In the field stalking with your adrenaline rushing shooting freehand is a totally different story. For most hunters the added killing power can be the difference from a wounded deer to a dead deer. For people who can control themselves and setup for a great shot it may mean nothing. The difference is up to the hunter, the situation the hunter hunts in, and the skills the hunter has. I shoot a bit of .243 and enjoy it. I like the round. To me though I really love the performance it gives on varmints. Where I live you can't take deer with a centerfire so this whole debate is meaningless to me. The only use I have for the .243 is varmints. The only use I have for a .308 is varmints. Everything gets used on varmints since thats all I can shoot at with them.
 
Just go with the do it all .30x06, it'll drop anything on this continent and it'll work as a light african rifle.
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The utility of a versatile cartridge is lost upon our thread starting friend.

He fancies himself quite the iconoclast.
 
Shouldnt this thread be called "The Swede and The Princess":neener:

30-06 is still the King:cool:, long live the King.

BTW-Energy is not the best way to quantify a bullets terminal performance. From a physics point of view, momentium works better and bullet construction and sectional density must be factored in.
 
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