Caliber Comparison: The Swede vs. The King

[Shawnee]

Hi "Benzy2"...


"What a bigger more powerful round gives is the ability to either be a worse shot and still come away with a dead deer or to shoot at a worse angle and still come away with a dead deer."


That is an excellent articulation of the ancient, and bad, mentality behind using a 30-ought-goofy and exactly the mindset that any Hunter Safety Instructor will teach students to NOT have.

The "worse shot" and the "shooter at worse angles" don't "come away with a dead deer". They leave the majority of wounded and suffering deer to die unrecovered in the woods and fields. They blaze away with a cannon - telling themselves that the noise and the "power" will make up for their laziness - using the gun's "power" as an excuse for sloppy, inhumane trigger-jerking - and when they wound a deer and it doesn't fall dead in their game pouch they take their 30-ought-slob and go look for another deer to shoot in the guts.

Someone can be a very, very good shot but if they refuse to use good judgement in their deer shooting they are nothing but coyote-feeders. And if they do use good judgement they don't need a cannon.

My neighbor crops deer legally and last year he killed 24 deer with 25 shots. The "extra" shot was a clean miss of a head shot attempted at about 300yds.
This year so far he is 15 deer with 15 shots. He uses a .22/250.

Sorry 'bout the broken fantasies but the "need" for something like a thirty-ought-baloney is just that - pure baloney.

Using an '06 isn't "wrong", per se - but it is wrong when someone uses it with the pretense that its' excess of power (and noise) will compensate for poor skills and/or poor judgement. And that goes on a whale of a lot more than the cannoneers will ever admit.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well said, Shawnee.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

That is an excellent articulation of the ancient, and bad, mentality behind using a 30-ought-goofy and exactly the mindset that any Hunter Safety Instructor will teach students to NOT have.

No it is a realization that crap happens. Unless your "game" is released from a cage in a fenced area while you park your butt on a stand with a bag of Doritoes, it is only a matter of time before an awkward angle presents itself and you misread it, or an animal moves or shifts, or the bullet hits foliage directly in front of the animal, or any number of other things that just happen. It isn't realistic to assume you will always only take perfect shots on animals in the field. Using the largest caliber one can shoot proficiently acknowledges reality and does allow for a slightly larger margin of error. I use a 7 Mag stoked with 160 gr Noslers. I try not to rely on the margin of error it provides, but it is nice to have it. And having it has saved a game animal from a prolonged and painful death simply because I didn't see the brush in front of the animal. A smaller bullet wouldn't have had the momentum to remain as on course as my bullet did. So even though my bullet still struck a good 8 to 10 inches back from the crease of the shoulder, it was still able to take out the rear of the lungs and the liver. A bullet with 1/3 less mass would have been in the intestines. So you can carry on about discipline and surgical shot placement, but this doesn't reflect what actually occurs in the field when you're cold and tired, wet and hungry, shooting quickly under stress from a field position in a complex, dynamic environment at, whether you choose to admit it or not, is an unpredictable, moving, living creature that is still capable of screwing up your shot even if you do everything right.

Some of us have enough sense to acknowledge this and enough respect for the game we hunt to accommodate for it by not using a marginally or minimally adequate cartridge, like the Two-Forty-Weak.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Do you have any idea how greatly your penchant for using stupid names to describe the 30-06 detracts from your arguments?


The 243, 257 Robert, 250 Savage, et al.... are all fine deer cartridges.

So is the 30-06... and for some reason that has your knickers in a twist.

If Joe Blow wants to shoot a 160 pound whitetail with a 458 Lott.... what's it to you?

I wager he will collect his deer happily, while you opine about the size of his phallus for choosing a large bore.

Are you tired of this game yet?

 

[IndianaBoy]

I think we can safely dub our cartridge expert the 30-ought-troll for his efforts.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

MTMan, good points. But there's a lot to be said for *passing up the shot* altogether* when it's a weird angle / weird situation, rather than taking a marginal shot thinking that a big boomer will somehow "make up for" the bad shooting situation. I think that is largely what Shawnee is saying. We are ALWAYS free to PASS on the shot until another shot presents itself on that day or another day, and this is the better part of good ethics most of the time, on a marginal shot.

 

[JShirley]

Fact is, if anyone shoots any deer with a .243 and the deer isn't harvested it is for one (and only one) reason - the shooter made a lousy shot.

Baloney. There could be any number of reasons why this happened. I fired at a deer a few years ago, and wondered why I missed. My scope mount had loosened. As MT pointed out, it may be impossible to see a branch in front of your game. There are numerous reasons.

"Humble Shawnee"?! That'll be the day.

I like using a heavier bullet than a .243 offers because it gives more versatility. I can take the shot on a 400-lb pig if I get the chance without worrying that I'll just injure the animal and it'll die in the brush somewhere. I can take shoulder shots, back shots, or rib shots. A well-designed heavier bullet will work just fine on lighter game, but the inverse is not always true.

John

 

[publiuss]

"The .260 Rem is a .243 that finally grew up after a prolonged adolescence."

The 260 is a solution in search of a problem. It is merely a modern reproduction of the Great Swede.

 

[Shawnee]

Again Lads....


"Using an '06 isn't "wrong", per se - but it is wrong when someone uses it with the pretense that its' excess of power (and noise) will compensate for poor skills and/or poor judgement. And that goes on a whale of a lot more than the cannoneers will ever admit."

As "Premiumsauce" correctly points out - there is always the option to not shoot.

Every hunter's field performance is the result of the standards they set and hold for themselves. Those standards are a personal choice that everyone has to make. But the fact remains that higher cartridge power does not compensate for lower standards of judgement and skill.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The 260 is a solution in search of a problem. It is merely a modern reproduction of the Great Swede.

When you think about it, the Swedes know how to do a *LOT* of things right. I for one will not question their judgment:

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/8703/attswedishbikini.jpg

 

[Shawnee]

"The 260 is a solution in search of a problem. It is merely a modern reproduction of the Great Swede."

Hadn't actually thought of it like that but it makes sense.... at least from a hunter's standpoint. Long range target shooters admire the .260 and rightly so, methinks.

Sauce ! You may have hit on the best reason(s) yet to go buy a Swede !

 

[matrem]

This can't have anything to do with how many thousandths my bullet diameter is,or what the parent case is,could it ??
Actually IMO these "discussions are the reason that we have the selection we enjoy.
Yea,Thirty ought..What's that?,Do ya need that to kill something??

 

[Jst1mr]

Shawnee,my friend, why do you persist.??? The simple fact for me is this - over the last 20yrs or so, averaging 3-5 gun-killed deer per year, I have not lost a one, period...perhaps I could say the same had I carried a different rifle, but why in the world would I change? I do not excessively damage meat, the deer falls over dead EVERY time, and I am not sensitive to the noise or recoil. Your deer-cropping friend has an exceptional record with a 22-250...so be it. Though I do not condone head shots...they are not always the clean miss/clean kill that they seem to be...over the years I have dispatched at least 2 deer with lower jaws shot off that people were apparently unaware they hit. Let us all be comfortable in our choice of what works best for each of us in our particular place and situation - if it works for you, then its best for you, but don't try and convert me (kinda like religion when ya think about it! Now Shawnee, back to some of that other interesting stuff you challenge us with

 

[matrem]

Wait,I feel too guilty.IMO the .30-06 is the king of american big game rounds.I've never hunted with one ,but it is "boss."

 

[USSR]

Hi USSR...

If you say you shoot the 129-grainer at 2950fps., fine, I'll take your word for it.

My response is: "So what do you gain of any real value?"

Nope, didn't say I shoot the 129-grainer at 2950fps, what I said was, I shoot 139gr to 142gr bullets at 2950fps, so I don't see why you can't push the 129-grainer at the same velocity. You are being intellectually dishonest when you are making a comparison of the ft. pounds generated by two loads, and then deliberately download one of the two so as to advantage your preconcieved cartridge of choice.

Don

 

[skinewmexico]

My 13 year old twins killed 13 does last year with a 223, and each one was DRT. I wonder in the air pressure is making it expand to 30 caliber before impact?

And all this talk is got me buying a Douglas barrel I found, so I can turn my Savage 110 with a sporter 6.5x55 into a heavy barrel for F Class. Thanks a lot.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Don... again, I used the highest velocity I found published for the Swede and for the King- no deliberate "downloading". And again, I know both cartridges can be loaded hotter but I used published velocities. And again, both calibers have more than enough ft/lbs so whether one is a few less than the other is irrelevant. They're both great cartridges regardless of the differences in their numbers.

Hi Ski...

Hey - McGunner talked me into buying a 30/30 barrel for my Contender handgun - I figured I earned the right to talk someone into investing in a Swede. Look at the bright side - now it's your turn to lead some poor soul into buying something.

LOLOLOLOLOL !

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Shawnee,

The reason the published "Swede" loads are light is this...the older military rifles chambered for it are designed to work with pressures in the 45,000 psi range...newer bolt actions can handle a bit more.

 

[Jst1mr]

A .223 is about right for a 65lb WestTX deer...

 

[35 Whelen]

Energy is what causes a bullet to deform. Velocity only determines how fast it deforms.

Negative back at ya MTMilitiaman!

I agree with your Newton hypothesis, but it really has nothing to do with bullet deformation. All things equal, terminal velocity determines bullet deformation. Energy in and of itself does not determine bullet deformation. Period.
You say that kinetic energy causes a bullet to deform. How can that be when energy is determined by velocity and bullet weight? If that were true, then a large slow moving bullet would react the same as a light fast moving bullet if they possessed similar amounts of energy. We know that increasing bullet velocity increases the violence with which it expands. And it is true that increasing velocity, increases energy. BUT, increasing the weight of the bullet, which also increases energy, will not increase the violence with which the bullet expands.

Example: a 500 gr., .45 caliber caliber bullet impacting a medium at 1600 fps would do so with about 2843 ft. lbs. of energy. A 117 gr., .25 caliber bullet striking the same medium at 3300 fps would do so with 2830 ft. lbs. of energy. So, according to what you say, these bullets would deform in the same way. Absurd.

Another hypothetical example: If I were to shoot a .30 caliber, 1,050,000 gr. (150 lb.) pure lead bullet 35.8 fps at a deer, it would strike the deer with about 3000 ft. lbs. of energy. Likewise, if I shot the deer with a .30 caliber, 150 gr. pure lead bullet moving at 3000 fps, this bullet would likewise strike the deer with 3000 ft. lbs. of energy. So since the two bullets are striking the deer with near identical amounts of energy, you're telling me they'll deform the same? No way.

Newton settled this argument a long time ago. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This means the target hits the bullet as hard as the bullet hits the target.

According to your example of Newtons theory, the target hits the bullet as hard as the bullet hits the target. Again using a 150 gr bullet @ 3000 fps, (I like easy math ) the bullet hits the deer with 3000 ft. lbs. of energy and the deer hits the bullets with 3000 ft. lbs. of energy. So, you're telling me that if I were to throw a 150 lb. deer 35.8 fps, and it impacts a 150 gr. bullet, (3000 ft. lbs. of energy) that the bullet will be deformed the same as when it struck the deer @ 3000 fps?

I could go on, but surely you get the picture....

35W

 

[cliffy]

Pushing the .243 to its innate limits

Comfortably pushing a .243 Winchester 90 grain Swift Scirocco II bullet to 3300 fps muzzle velocity creates a world of death to any 400 pound critter within 300 yards. Often a 100 grain Nosler Partition spewed from the .243s muzzle at 3100 fps creates the same effect, not to mention the furious 100 grain slamming Speer Grand Slam at 3100 fps. Recoil becomes stout at these hyper-velocities, but any bullet leaving its muzzle at less than 3000 fps fails to amaze me for long-range shooting. If I ever get up the gumption to shoot a .264 Win Mag, I'll let you know. A .243 Winnie-Pooh can easily equal anything a 6.5mm bullet can do with slightly less felt recoil. Puddingwise, the 1000 yard shooters must admit the .243 Winchester is a force to be reckoned with. While 1000 yards is not a practical hunting range for ANY caliber, a 300yard shot at a deer is quite practical and deadly with a .243 Winchester and the correct bullet. Perhaps an upgrade in scope quality will decidedly help. A $600 rifle deserves a $600 scope. Cheap scopes are barely adequate to hold zero and do not offer a crystal-clear picture. Buy better glass, not a bigger caliber. Cliffy

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Negative back at ya MTMilitiaman!

Touche'

[mumbles to himself while wondering off to find old high school physics book...]

 

[benzy2]

I don't see why the bullet would deform differently if you threw the deer into it at 36 fps, if you could find a way to transfer the energy to the bullet itself in the same time it takes the energy of the bullet to transfer to the deer. The problem is the inertia of the deer is enough that the bulk of the energy is transfered from the bullet to the deer while if you launch a deer at a bullet you have such little inertia that the bullet gets shoved out of the way. I would think if you could transfer the energy of that 150 lb deer to the bullet in the same time frame that the bullet dumps it to the deer when shot and have the bullet itself absorb the energy it would deform the same.

The two formulas that are problems here are first P=m*v which is the formula we have been using to define energy. Then there is the inertia formula of F=m*a. This shows that the deer having a large mass will have much much more inertial force than the very light bullet and as such will not absorb the energy like the deer will.

One more way to look at it is to turn the deer into a thick solid steel plate with a pressure sensor. Lets assume the plate was hard enough that it did not deform at all from impact to remove that issue. Lets say the pressure sensor read 3000 ft lbs. If we put an identical bullet into a press and applied 3000 ft lbs of force what would the bullet look like? I would think it would come out the same as the bullet that hit the plate.

The problem with the .45 to .25 comparison is that you now add another variable in bullet design variances. How are you going to make the properties of the bullet design equal from the .25 to the .45? Do you make the jacket thickness the same or do you scale it based on caliber? How do you manage Sectional density differences when constructing a bullet? It just seems like there are so many possible variables from caliber to caliber that to compare a 500 gr .45 making 3000 ft lb and a 117 gr .25 making 3000 ft lb you are assuming the bullets are of equal design and then compare what you see as proof. It seems like a big assumption to me.

Correct me if any of this is wrong. It has been a long time since I have taken a physics class and I would love to hear more explanation as to why my logic isn't quite right, as it often isn't.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi "Ridgerunner"...

You're right and, in fact, we both know that commonly published "max" figures are usually conservative for most calibers - just as many factory loads are actually underloaded (The .44 Special factory stuff is probably factory loaded at about 65%).
"Cliffy" is correct - the .243 also can be stoked to more than 3200fps too. I don't bother with 'em because it isn't needed. I have a couple loads right around 3200 that are extremely acccurate in many rifles and absolute lightning on deer and hogs. I'm just not comfortable posting a load/velocity that isn't already commonly published here in America - Land of the Lawsuit, and because I know that only a small fraction of hunters are reloaders. I'm not even sure there are any 129gr. factory loads for the Swede that really reach 2600.
The poster "Deerhunter" just bought a CZ in the Swede and I am green with Envy but (so far) I haven't been able to come up with an excuse to buy one myself.