Caliber for 300-1000 yard Large Game Rifle

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Can we stick to DATA and Experience on the question please and not sheepish circular logic commentary.
The data & experience suggest that the combination of human, weather, animal, and least of all, rifle, contribute to a level of precision that is generally not consistent with predictable hunting-accurate performance at the ranges you are suggesting. Namely, that 1000yd shooters --including snipers-- pretty much always require sighting shots to get onto an organ-sized target, even in ideal conditions.

What is 50 BMG?
It's the biggest sniper gun in Call of Duty

TCB
 
I personally had a rifle built for big game and it is simply a Ackley improved 30-06 and since I'm a Reloader I'm always trying new things. I tell you I found the load using Superformance powder and a magnum primer I am able to push a 180gn bullet to 3100fps with no pressure sign and I am not yet to a comprised load. I haven't had any problems with the 180gn Barnes Bullet at 3100fps on elk.
 
Great, looks like I'm down to 300 WM, which I have direct experience with, or 300 WBY Mag.

Any big plus to 300 Wby Mag over 300 WM?
I am looking at a lightly used Weatherby Mark V 300Wby Mag or
Browning A-Bolt Stainless Stalker w/ BOSS comp.

So the advantage if hand loading isn't saving $, it's the ability to know exactly what you are shooting and fine tune things to your rifle, game, distance, comfort level, etc... Ureka!

I have a couple 30-06's. What will getting a 300 Wm or 300 Wby Mag allow me to train up to do that 30-06 can't?
 
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I have a couple 30-06's. What will getting a 300 Wm or 300 Wby Mag allow me to train up to do that 30-06 can't?
Can you rephrase that? It was my impression from one of your earlier posts that you already had a 300WM rifle that shoots well.

So the advantage if hand loading isn't $, it's the ability to know exactly what you are shooting and fine tune things to your rifle, game, distance, comfort level, etc... Ureka!
Exactly. Especially in regards to shooting at further distances.
 
I had a 300 WM, but sold it when I got my Savage 220 slug gun (which is my primary deer gun, and boy does it slay em'!) and switched down to 30-06.

I am now back in the market for a 300 WM type capability, unless some one can talk me into equating the 300WM w/ the 30-06, which i doubt is a reasonable proposition.
 
Not equal, but closer than you'd probably think. I don't handload for either caliber, but a quick look through my Lyman manual shows that you could push the same 200gr bullet to nearly 2700 FPS in the -06, or just barely over 2900 in the 300 Win Mag (tested with a 24" barrel in both cases). So just a bit over 200 FPS difference.

This is all theory of course, but using all the same external data, according to JBM:

From the 30-06:
  • Your bullet is supersonic to just barely beyond 950 yards. Just past that, it reaches the transonic zone (roughly Mach 1.2) and flight may (likely will) become erratic and unpredictable.
  • At that 950 yard mark (your max reachable range with this load), the bullet is carrying 841 ft lbs of energy, and traveling ~1376 FPS - just barely over Mach 1.2. I say max reachable because, though the bullet will continue to travel, your ability to place it as desired no longer lies solely in your skill as a shooter.
- - - - - - -
From the 300 Win Mag:
  • Your bullet is still supersonic out just beyond 1100 yards
  • The bullet carries 951 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards, and is traveling at 1463 FPS

Not a HUGE difference downrange. The limiting factor for terminal performance is going to be meeting an adequate velocity to provide consistent expansion of the bullet you use. You can find the manufacturer's suggested minimums on their websites, depending which round/s you select. Then use a correctly coded ballistics calculator with accurate data and find max effective range for your load. As so many others have said, whether or not you can get the bullet there will be up to you.

In theory, you could start by researching and end up determining the ideal caliber for what you want to do. For instance, say you know you want to be able to hunt (even if you never DO, you want the ability to do it) a specific game animal at 750 yards. Or 1200 yards. You start researching the type of bullet you need for that specific game animal, whether it's a cup and core bullet or something bonded or whatever. Then you look up load data and figure out which caliber rifles will push that bullet to varying velocities, and you plug those velocities into a calculator along with the elevation where you'll be hunting, expected temperatures and humidities, everything you can anticipate. Does caliber X push that bullet fast enough at whatever your max distance is to meet manufacturer's suggested minimum velocity for expansion? If not, that caliber won't work for you. Try again. Not the most effective way to go, and will take a lot of time, but you can figure it exactly what you need without ever spending a dime. Then once you get it, you practice and practice until you're able to perform, but you know going into it that the gear is up to the task. All that said, try and kee in mind that taking a life isn't a math problem, and life doesn't always turn out the way we expect. You could face any number of surprises. People have been killed with air guns, and others have been shot by large caliber rifles and survived.

Personally, I wouldn't be buying a rifle any time soon. Use the 30-06, get a quality optic, start doing your research, and spend more time behind your rifle. No reason to blow money on a new gun yet. If that money is burning a hole in your pocket, add it to your budget for the glass, and on ammo components.
 
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.375 weatherby magnum with 350gr. Sierra's.
Launched at 2650fps, it carries just over 1675fps and 2180 ft lb's at 1000 yards, and stays supersonic until 1900 yards.

Use enough gun if you are going to attempt to take elk size game at extended ranges.
Budget for a high end scope and enough ammo to become proficient.
Make sure you have access to a 1000+ yard range.

Then ask yourself if you'd rather polish up your stalking and tracking skills instead of spending all that money.
 
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Well I have shot stages clean at 600 yards at shooting matches using my Pedersoli Rolling Block 45/70 from real world sitting position using cross sticks.

My rear sight is a Soule Tang made by Lee Shaver and a hooded front sight. At 600 yards I still had about a inch of elevation adjustment left on the sight.

However in these matches the target was buffalo shaped about three feet wide and any hit counts.

I don't know how much additional range is possible with a 45-110. However the movie Quigley Down Under does go into detail about the gun and cartridge he was using

With a high quality single shot rifle, scope and handloaded ammunition carefully matched to the gun sure. Hitting the 12" kill zone I would say lucky.
 
Hitting a large metal target anywhere and hitting a tough animal like a elk with a quickly fatal shot are certainly different things, as BSA1 pointed out above.
 
More than anything, I think it's practice and conditions.

I've hunted in Montana. Totally different ball game from here in Indiana. You can usually see the animal for a long time. In our situation, we were in hilly country and nearly always had a rest. We've killed pronghorn at +/- 400 yards with a plain 30-06 and .243.

Remember that a pronghorn is only about the size of a large dog.

IMO, a VAST majority of hunters shoot maybe a few dozen shots a year practicing.

Go over to Varmint's Den and look at some of the ranges those guys shoot.
 
Personally, I wouldn't be buying a rifle any time soon. Use the 30-06, get a quality optic, start doing your research, and spend more time behind your rifle. No reason to blow money on a new gun yet. If that money is burning a hole in your pocket, add it to your budget for the glass, and on ammo components.

I would have to agree here. That -06 will do 90% of what a WinMag will do and 100% of what you will need to get a start in long range shooting. If you don't reload yet, you could spend half of what you would on a new rifle for a good set-up and you will get waaaaay more range time.
 
Go on YouTube and look at long range hunting. Some pretty good shots.

Great, I've watched some of the videos in the past. Some are edited, most don't show the misses or bad hits/lost animals. Saw one of a kid take a Elk at 1000yds+. Missed first two shots, hits it on the third. They walk the 1/2 mile plus to look for it and can't be sure of where it stood. End up finding it, was a good hit, then the dad explains how this is ethical because they practice and can make these shots everytime (?).
Having shot deer in the woods at 200yds, seeing them go down and walk down to find them in the brush, can't imagine looking for something 1000 yds away.
PLEASE give the animal more respect then that.
Off my soap box...

PS I have hunted Wyoming and do realize you can shoot Antelope at distance see them fall and they have no were to hide. But I still see no real need to push excessive long range.
 
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If 300 WM is all i need, Great!

What can 300WM really do well that 30-06 simply can not?

Personally, I wouldn't be buying a rifle any time soon. Use the 30-06, get a quality optic, start doing your research, and spend more time behind your rifle. No reason to blow money on a new gun yet. If that money is burning a hole in your pocket, add it to your budget for the glass, and on ammo components.
Bobson nailed it.
If you don't currently load your own ammo, and you truly do want to shoot accurately to the limits of your rifle, it would behoove you to find a handloading mentor and learn to squeeze the best accuracy from your .30-06 possible. The .30-06 is no slouch in the accuracy department and it gives up little to the .300 WM.
I compete in High Power Rifle Silhouette. My caliber of choice is 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. It can reliably knock down the 500M ram with a 140 gr. bullet. Note that most silhouette shooters do not load their ammo hot because doing so beats the snot out of you by the end of the 40 round match.

What the preceding is meant to convey is that it doesn't take a lot of power to shoot 500M (547 yd.) accurately, but it does take a heck of a lot of practice with an accurate rifle with the most accurate ammo possible. I do not know a single competitive silhouette shooter that uses factory ammo. I am sure there are some out there, but I haven't met any of them yet.

I believe Bobson is absolutely correct. Buy the best scope you can afford with a 4.5-16x or 6.5-20x zoom range (I use a 6.5-20x on my 6.5x55 Tikka Hunter) and learn to make your own reliably accurate ammo in your .30-06. You will be surprised how far that will take you.
My 6.5x55 will shoot 2.6" five-round groups at 500M from a solid bench rest under ideal conditions. A practiced shooter with a good .30-06 with a quality scope and carefully crafted ammo should be able to do just as well. Possibly better.

JMHO.
 
In 40 years of big game hunting, in the US, Canada and Africa, I have only taken ONE animal at over 400 yards, that was a elk in Alberta at a laser measured 412 yards.

You can always get closer, that is why they call it hunting. So for shots from 400 yards and in, the .30-06 will do just fine if you already have one. Spend the time and money on ammo and practice.
 
I have a 300 whb mag ss synthetic mark v , shoots 3/4 moa with factory 180s. Have no need for it any more. Has killed one elk at around 600. Will do all you want.
 
The .300 Wby has noticeably more recoil than the .300 WM, at least to me. Which sometimes makes precision shooting more difficult
 
I guess I'm the odd man out. There are many suggestions from the wild to the ridiculous here. Really, a 50 Cal?

Why not choose a 6.5mms Creedmoor? Monster calibers shot heavy bullets which cancels out the advantage. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the darling or the long distance game because it's accurate, has less drop than many others and the bullet stats supersonic further out. If you are hunting goats the 6.5 is a very good choice. Before that the .257 Bob and .270 Win were good choices. No need for a .338 Lapua unless the animal is hiding behind engine block.

Personally I own a few 30-06 rifles and when loading the right bullet it would be the gun I would use. The Creedmoor would be better but I already have and shoot the 30-06 and I know my gun.
 
Why not choose a 6.5mms Creedmoor?
The OP states a desire to hunt large game at extended ranges. To me this means carrying enough energy to enable a clean and ethical kill. While the 6.5's have a great BC, they have comparably little energy retained at 1000 yards.

Monster calibers shot heavy bullets which cancels out the advantage.
Strange statement, since the 6.5 is such a good long range round largely because it shoots bullets that could be considered monsterously long and heavy for the caliber. Heavy and long tapered bullets retain their energy further and drop less than lighter bullets which is a major consideration, not so much for paper and steel, but definitely for killing game. The .338, .375, and .50 can all be loaded with bullets of a similar BC as the 6.5 and perform similar ballistically but with much better performance on target.
The military goes bigger when they need to go longer. It's because bigger calibers with heavy bullets retain energy and velocity, dropping less and hitting harder than smaller ones.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is the darling or the long distance game because it's accurate, has less drop than many others and the bullet stats supersonic further out. If you are hunting goats the 6.5 is a very good choice. Before that the .257 Bob and .270 Win were good choices. No need for a .338 Lapua unless the animal is hiding behind engine block.

Agreed, the 6.5 is a great long range cartridge, but just doesn't carry the energy to kill large animals cleanly at long range with any kind of margin for error. Neither does the .257 or .270. The ballistics are there with some loads, but not the bullet weight.

Personally I own a few 30-06 rifles and when loading the right bullet it would be the gun I would use. The Creedmoor would be better but I already have and shoot the 30-06 and I know my gun.

Nothing wrong with the 30-06, or the 6.5, but neither are capable mathematically of providing what the OP desires...a gun capable of killing large game cleanly at 1000 yards.
Remember, at 1k yards you are going to get little to no bullet expansion, so poking big holes is better than little ones.

That's why I mentioned a .375. Not only will it run with the 6.5 ballistically with heavy, high BC bullets, it will arrive on target at 1k yards with over 2k ft lb's of energy, and enough velocity to at least stand a chance of deformation.

Now if the OP had stated a useable range of 300-700 yards, I would completely agree with you. And frankly, I think the OP should try mastering his .30-06 at 600 yards then go from there, when they have a better idea of what they are attempting to do.
Of course that's all just my opinion as someone who's never killed a game animal past 200 yards.
 
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silicosys4,
Wow, you sure did pick my post apart while chastising me about an ethical kill while ignoring the OP wanting to take 1000 yard shots on game. Interesting.

The OP did mention the words large game but never did say what large was. In a later post he did mention goats which can be "ethically" shot with a 6 5 Creedmoor. I'm not sure why you said the 6.5 Creedmoor, the .257 Bob or .270 Win are bad choices when I clearly said "If you're hunting goats." Do you really think none if those cartridges are suitable for hunting goats? If not what is?

At least we both agree the good-ol '06 is a good choice.
 
silicosys4,
Wow, you sure did pick my post apart while chastising me about an ethical kill while ignoring the OP wanting to take 1000 yard shots on game. Interesting.

:rolleyes:
polite disagreement is not chastising. The OP has been beaten to death as far as the ethics of taking such a shot, I think time should be devoted to the ethics of caliber selection. Animals are not steel and paper.

The OP did mention the words large game but never did say what large was. In a later post he did mention goats which can be "ethically" shot with a 6 5 Creedmoor. I'm not sure why you said the 6.5 Creedmoor, the .257 Bob or .270 Win are bad choices when I clearly said "If you're hunting goats." Do you really think none if those cartridges are suitable for hunting goats? If not what is?

I think those cartridges are unsuitable for hunting anything at 1000 yards. I prefer to stay supersonic and carry at least 1000ftlbs+ at that distance if I'd try to hunt any kind of game.

At least we both agree the good-ol '06 is a good choice.
For under 800 yards or so, yes.
 
Hmmm

Thanks silicocys4 and Poper and swampcrawler and those of you who provided non-judgemental helpful insights.

Please understand to all on the lecture circuit 1st that I am not expecting to run out and shoot anything past my Practiced, Repeated Success Trained Range. I put in time and training, and am at least smart enough to ASK tough questions when I am out of my depth. I hate to have to track game with the miserable sinking sickening feeling that you might not find it. I respect game and go to great lengths to recover all the deer I bow hunt, etc. So YES I realize a 1000 yard shot may NEVER happen and that is fine, but I'd like the tool to be able to do it none the less. Are you telling me you NEED all the guns you own? :neener:

I just don't want to have to keep buying guns, so if I need 375 H+ H then I get it, learn to live w/ recoil and move on w/ life. But if some folks think 30-06 is close, and most indicate 300 WM will do the trick, then 300 WM it is. The prices of 375 H+H ammo plus the Advil I will need and massage therapy make it less desireable if 300 WM is enough for everything in N. Am.

I got a sweet deal (I hope, havn't shot it yet) on a like-new Brown. A-Bolt Stainless Stalker with built in BOSS. Got it, w/ a Bushnell Banner 4x12x40 scope (which I have already replaced for now w/ a Viper Vortex 3.5X10X50 that I bought on sale previously and had available) hard case, sling and a box of winchester 150 grn. ammo all for $500. It has a sweet trigger, and I think it may be the A-Bolt 2 actually, based on its having a sleeve over part of the bolt that dose not move when the bolt is raised.

I will by NO means make the 300 WM my Virginia deer rifle, I love the Savage 220 slug gun too much, but will train on it, and occassionally take it out to hunt the power lines and big open fields at 200 yards plus as I work my way up to greater distances so i have some real life field practice (after range practice of course, but remember, I have already taken several deer at 200-300 yards w/ 20 G slug, and my old 300 Wm).

I also have a hand loading mentor I have worked out a deal with, an ex-marine sniper and competition shooter w/ lots of equipment. And when I out grow my scope i will look into the need for better glass, but not sure i need that.

So do I need a 375 H+H? :D:evil::D
 
If you are seriously interested in shooting at extended ranges accurately, you need to learn exactly how your rifle will perform with a particular load. This is often quite different than how the ballistics tables say they will perform.

I did an experiment a long time ago with some 270's. Shooting the same load, the MV varied 200 fps between the rifles (same barrel length).

With that in mind, I really don't think you can tell what the MV will be until you chronograph the rifle with the selected hunting load. Also, the 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby may actually be quite close.

A second point is that bullet placement and bullet performance kill, not "energy". Also I subscribe to the John Taylor position that momentum (mass*velocity) is much more important than energy (mass*velocity^2) in predicting performance on game.

The ethical questions have already been addressed.
 
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