Calibers and loads for high performance in short action rifles

[Nature Boy]

I can measure bullet combinations for you if you want. From what I have.

It seems the favorite is the 180g VLD, which puts the COAL at 3.10 and making it a single loading proposition. Not that big of a deal since I generally single load when I'm shooting anyway

 

[1stmarine]

Banging an 18" steel gong at 1,000 yards
Making tiny groups in paper out to 600 yards
Shooting a whitetail once or twice a year
The enjoyment of developing loads to maximize its performance

In other words, everything I do with my .308, hahahah!

The 308 is hard to beat as a "do it all, do it pretty decently" popular caliber, but yes you will
be able to do the same things with plenty of momentum (168-190gr bullets) and
inherently more accurately because the 7mm will buck the wind better.

Also the other day the discussion came up about the all copper CNC bullets like GS, Cutting edge, Flat line, etc...
I have been testing a few boxes with high BC ones but I do not have enough data to recommend them.
But definitively a easy alternative to improve ballistics in several applications and if the volume of shooting
is not to high due to the higher cost of these.

A 308 winchester in a handy 20"-22" rifle pushes the 155-165gr bullets well over 2800fps and you have bullets
like flat line close to a G1=.6 that is amazing. This is your average 260R / 6.5mm trajectory only possible from 24"-26" barrels.
You can also try the 151gr 7mm that has a G1=.720! ..the 284 will push close to 3000fps with N550!!

 

[1stmarine]

We we say "post factory loads" we should not intend to dissect those but simply post the basic information from the tests like bullet used (if known), rifle/barrel, temp., speed spreads, accuracy, etc..

 

[Legionnaire]

Tag.

 

[Gtscotty]

Ok, I can't get this .284 out of my mind.

So the project would be to re-barrel my FN SPR and put it in an XLR chassis

I'd send it off to Short Action Customs to do the square up and install

Do I go with

1. the standard .284 win? I read it holds the 10 shot record at 1,000
2. the .284 Shehane (seems to be all the rage over at accurateshooter.com, requires fire forming brass)
3. the 6.5-284 to scratch the six point five itch

Or just get over trying to be an oddball and get the "creed" and be like every other swinging Johnson out there these days

I hear you, I'm planning my suppressed elk/deer/antelope rifle for next season, and a 19" .284 built on a T3 keeps popping up in the back of my mind. I figure with a .284 or .280 in a carbine I could probably meet or exceed slightly the performance of a rifle length 7mm-08. .284 would give me more mag space to play with, but the on and off nature of .284 brass production kind of creeps me out. Since it's intended to be a hunting rifle, I'll probably wind up going with a pac-nor in .280 or .30-06 for logistical simplicity, but still...

I'll have to guess at some of my velocities a bit because I got complacent and had them stored in the magnetospeed XFR app and Shooter app on my phone that died last month .

In my RPR I've been shooting 42.5gr of H4350 under 140gr Nosler CC's for 2,740 fps from the factory barrel. This load doesn't exploit the full potential of the 6.5CM, but it's pretty decent in the wind and cheap at $.19 per bullet, I pitched my Hornady brass at 11-13 firings

My other 6.5CM is a Kimber Montana intended to be one of my cow elk/muley rifles this year, as such, the main loads I've developed are all hunting loads. All velocities from the factory 22" barrel.

140gr Accubond, 42.5gr RL16, Hornady cases, CCI 200, 2,760 fps

143gr ELDx, 42.5gr RL16, Hornady cases, CCI 200, ~2,750 fps

127gr LRX, 43.5gr RL16, Hornady cases, CCI 200, ~2,910 fps

I'm thinking about chopping this rifle to 20" and threading a bit larger than factory for suppressor use next year (6lbs scoped now, 6.75 lbs with a TI can?), 2,700 fps should still be easy to hit.

I haven't tried the 147gr ELD in my rifle yet, but given the velocities I've seen with RL16, and other folks are seeing with RL17, I'd expect 2,750 fps to be a safe and reasonable goal for a 24" barrel.

I also loaded the Nosler CCs in this rifle for cheap practice, but it didn't particular like them. Both Sierra and Alliant have published loads for the 6.5CM for a few different powders that put 140-142gr bullets out of a 24" barrel at above 2,800 fps, but RL16 is the most temp insensitive. I just ordered an 8lb jug from Natchez for $218 shipped (10% off sale ends today), so I'm planning on switching the RPR over to RL16 as well.

I also shoot a .308 Tikka CTR, 20" barrel.

Cheap load: 168gr Nosler CC, 45gr Varget, Hornady cases, CCI 200, 2,620 fps

Best load: 178gr ELDx/Amax, 44gr Varget, Hornady cases, CCI 200, ~2,610 fps

The 6mm loads I mentioned in the other thread aren't mine, they were from a guy at my range who had just rebarreled his RPR to a 6mm Creed (having shot out his factory 6.5 CM barrel with Hornady factory match loads). He was getting close to 3,100 fps with 110gr Sierra's, I can't remember what powder he was using, but his numbers mesh pretty well with the velocities quoted for a similar setup on one of the barrel chopping tests on rifleshooter.com.

Longer range shooting is very big in my area, and I try to shoot as often as I can in a monthly PRS style match at my local range that goes out to about 850yds. Pretty much everyone there is shooting a 6mm or 6.5 of some sort, except one guy and his wife who shoot .284s. Wind is by far the biggest variable for this type of shooting, doubly so for southern Wyoming where 25 mph is a pretty standard day during part of the year. This kind of environment is where the 6mms and 6.5mms really shine, the warmer 7mms do very well too, but at the expense of higher recoil and less chance of being able to spot your own shots; the extra energy on steel doesn't really buy you anything until you get way out to where 6mm hits start getting hard to see.

I will say that the most impressive shooting I've seen is a guy who scored two consecutive hits on a 14" tall mini-torso target at 850 yds in a clocked 41 mph wind two years ago. I think he was shooting a 7mm SAUM.

 

[MrBorland]

The classic "Mid-length" Mauser actions are perfect for this type of use but otherwise there might be
other solutions.

Borden now makes an intermediate-length action (The Ridgeline). I was eyeballing it for a possible 7x57 build, but would likely make a killer .284W build.

from: https://bordenrifles.com/custom-actions/alpine-and-timberline-actions/

Ridgeline actions are a hybrid Remington 700 footprint. This model is intended for mid length cartridges such as the 6.5×284 Win, 257 Roberts, 6MM Remington, 300 WSM, 7 WSM, 270 WSM and the RSAUM family of cartridges.

A "magic load" I've found for 7-08 is 42.0grn Varget under a 140grn NAB. Every 7-08 I've ever done load work for has liked this load.

Thanks for this. I'll have to try it. I've got a boat load of Varget, some NABs, but haven't tried them together. My 7mm-08 seems fussy, so I'm willing to give it a try.


As far as loads, I'll have to check my notes for other loads, but off the top of my head, 40.8gr H4350 under a 140gr SMK is a mild but very accurate in my Tikka CTR .260 Remington. A friend brought his CTR to the range, as well as some Black Hills match ammo using SMKs, and these reloads matched BH in velocity (2550 FPS from a 20" barrel) and accuracy (typically 0.5MOA). Maybe not my choice (rifle or load) for long range shooting, but inside 500 yards, a very good combo, IMO.

 

[old heeler]

I don't think the F-Class 284 is build short action.

Read this post

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ts-450-24x-f-open-record-with-home-built-gun/

2900fps with Berger 180gr is not from short action.

I shoot a 284 on long action with 27" barrel and I'm in the 3000fps/2900fps range with 160/168gr gr bullets and I use it for hunting.
Berger manual has SAAMI Spec 284 @ 2.800" and 180gr VLD with 24" barrel at mid 2600fps.

 

[1stmarine]

I don't think the F-Class 284 is build short action.

That in the link is a BAT ‘M’ action.
The ideal is a Mid action but some folks people use a long action for a repeater to A)Save B) have more options.
Many are not build in SA but they can be built in a SA. It all depends on magazine situation and choice in repeaters and for
single feeding it doesn't matter. Free-bore also needs to be chosen accordingly when cutting the chamber.

 

[old heeler]

I guess I should of mention that about short action with magazine. on my post and doesn't really belong here and neither do I.

 

[farmerboy78]

Nice! ...@farmerboy78 those are long barrels! ... what do you use them for?

Fclass

 

[Offfhand]

This custom 6.5 Leopard long range target rifle is a prime example of high performance built into a short action: Short 700 action, HS stock, Krieger barrel. The 6.5 Leopard is .300 WSM necked to 6.5 (I use .270 WSM brass, which is simpler.) Velocity with 142 gr MK is well over 3000 fps. Photo also shows 140 gr Berger VLD, which is wicked at 1K. Wiring on barrel is attached to strain gauge used in developing loads.

 

[z7]

if you want to rev up your 308 win and get better performance than the ole 175 smk

24" Rem/Varm contour k&p barrel
44.0g varget, winchest brass
178 ELD Match CCI BR2
9.9 mils at 1000 yds, equates to 2675-2700 fps, shooting in Florida, down near the coast with DA around 1300, it looks even better when you get to some thin air

I have seen reports of a good load using 185 juggernauts and alliant power pro 2000 mr and getting 2750-2800fps in a 308 winchester and want to try out that combo. 8.7 mils at 1000yds and supersonic through 1200yds. not bad for a 308

 

[1stmarine]

I am not sure about the new 178 Elds but the juggernauts and 2000 mr are something not to be overlooked.

If you love the Juggernauts you will love these solids and will work great with 2000 MR and A2520

I ordered a few boxes of the 30 cal and 7mm and started playing with them The 180gr seems to be
around G1=.710 corrected bc!!!!... that is a game changer. They are not the cheapest but they are worth
every cent.

 

[Gtscotty]

I managed to find the records of two of our local PRS style matches in the past year where the range master took note of what everyone was shooting. Not that it means anything, but I thought it might be interesting to post.

Match 1:
6.5 Creedmoor - 6
.308 Win - 3
6mm Dasher - 2
.243 Win - 2
.260 Rem - 2
6.5 Grendel - 1
.223 Wylde - 1

Match 2:
6.5 Creedmoor - 8
.260 Rem - 2
6mm Dasher - 2
.270 Win - 1
.243 - 1

I've also seen a few .284 Wins, 6mm Creedmoors and a 6mm-.250 wildcat, but those were at different matches.

Edit: 1stmarine, are those Flat Line bullets?

 

[1stmarine]

Edit: 1stmarine, are those Flat Line bullets?

Yes those are FL solid bullets.

 

[someguy2800]

It's a real shame the .284 wasn't made the same length as a 308. With the rebated rim to use the standard 30/06 bolt face, slightly wider body, and shoulder angle it would be the ultimate short action case to me. Unfortunate that the industry standardized on the 308 and 30/06 case lengths which kind of made the .284 irrelevant until target shooters found it.

I bought a used 6.5x284 savage barrel yesterday. I found a Douglas 6.5x284 barrel on gunbroker with a muzzle brake on it for $144, then checked on ebay to see what a set of dies would cost me. I found an rcbs bushing full length sizer for $27. The universe must have wanted me to have it. Hopefully it still has some life left in it, they said it had 500 through it. Hoping I can get another 1000 out of it with a mild load. I'll be happy with 1 moa to 600 yards.

 

[1stmarine]

It's a real shame the .284 wasn't made the same length as a 308. With the rebated rim to use the standard 30/06 bolt face, slightly wider body, and shoulder angle it would be the ultimate short action case to me. Unfortunate that the industry standardized on the 308 and 30/06 case lengths which kind of made the .284 irrelevant until target shooters found it.

I think there is a spot for the 284 as originally intended because it can work great in standard Short and Medium actions, it all depends on the
objectives and of course the magazine and free-bore situation. I believe the longest short action magazine is in one of the most affordable budget
rifles that is the axis. So there you have easy re-barrel and a hunting cartridge that will do everything a 280 can do. That is another mystery, the 280.

At the same time there is a strong argument for a tad shorter version to use the longer bullets in more popular magazines.
The versatility of the case design with the slightly rebated ream has been demonstrated by all its offspring in popular and more exclusive wildcats.
One thing that surprises me about the Norma brass is how strong the 284 case is.

IMO what is even a bigger mystery is why the 7mm-08 has been labeled and commercialized as a nice family oriented deer cartridge. Just think
about all the things that it can do with a decent barrel and twist and some reloading because high performance factory load assortment is really small.
I mean, this is a nice deer and hog cartridge with lots of choices for that but it is also so much more.

Too many cartridges and too much confusion I guess.

 

[someguy2800]

Too many cartridges and too much confusion I guess.

That's really the problem. I almost hate it when new cartridges come out as by now in almost every situation there is already something that does 95% or 105% as much as anything someone can come up with. We are just replicating existing things now.

I wish things would have just standardized on the 223, the 308 and a slightly shorter case .284 case as the standard and magnum for short actions, and the 30/06 and 300 win mag case for long actions. You can pretty much accomplish any objective by necking up and down on those.

Even for example the 6.5 creedmore. A perfectly good cartridge but what does it do that a 260 didn't? And why did the creedmore take off in the mass market where the 260 is pretty much now a custom gun only cartridge?

 

[old heeler]

That in the link is a BAT ‘M’ action.
The ideal is a Mid action but some folks people use a long action for a repeater to A)Save B) have more options.
Many are not build in SA but they can be built in a SA. It all depends on magazine situation and choice in repeaters and for
single feeding it doesn't matter. Free-bore also needs to be chosen accordingly when cutting the chamber.

You can have short action single shot and seat the bullet out for the 284 but unless you have that 32" barrel your not going to get that velocity.

The BAT M also supports that barrel

https://www.batmachine.com/batactions/model-m/

This is from accurateshooter.com

I am having a 284 built and went with the BAT MB action as it has more "meat" around the barrel threads to support a long heavy barrel. In my case 32" long with a straight 1.25" contour..

 

[Gtscotty]

1stmarine,

To answer your question from the other thread, Hornady is making a 147gr 6.5mm ELDm.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...m-264-diameter-147-grain-boat-tail-box-of-100

There have been murmurs about a 155gr Berger elite hunter coming out... I guess it was true if the pictures in this thread are legitimate:

https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...6-5-cal-155-grain-berger-elite-hunter.190703/

I'm sure those are aimed at the 6.5 magnum crowd though.

 

[1stmarine]

1stmarine,
To answer your question from the other thread, Hornady is making a 147gr 6.5mm ELDm.

Thanks for the link! It seems they closed the thread ? ?
They seem pretty good and the 260 with the extra capacity should be able to push them to some decent speeds.
I see they have factory ammo too. Anyone has tested the ammo and/or bullets and get the actual speeds and adjusted BC? If so we can add them to this list.

regarding the longer bullets and magnums one needs to be careful with those and the smaller caliber because those can push hard and the typical bullets when they reach certain speed and torque forces they will not make it 20 or 30 yards form the muzzle and blow up unless they are bonded or solid bullets. Those larger magnums are a waste imo.

 

[1stmarine]

That's really the problem. I almost hate it when new cartridges come out as by now in almost every situation there is already something that does 95% or 105% as much as anything someone can come up with.

The most significant evolution has been in the bullets, powders and rifle making + equipment itself rather than radical new casings.
IMO in the long action the 338 lapua magnum due to its caliber dimensions and geometry has offered a truly distinctive advantage. Also lapua = consistency that is the key.
In other situations folks are looking at older cartridges with a new perspective if the marketing and sales guys didn't get to them first.
If you look at the list of wildcat reamers is insane and one could be studying them for months only to realize most of them do not offer anything that was not there before.
Lots of good discussions but lets me move on with the Short Action test loads. I will post the table shortly.

 

[Nature Boy]

I was hoping someone would talk me out of the .284 but I think that's what I'm going to do.

Likely calling SAC next week to get this project off the ground

 

[1stmarine]

I was hoping someone would talk me out of the .284 but I think that's what I'm going to do.

Likely calling SAC next week to get this project off the ground

Hard to talk anyone out of this one. Extending Max COAL and taking a close look at the true capabilities of the 7mm-08 are the typical considerations but it seems
you are already past that point so it will be hard to find any other reason why not.
You have the rifle with the right bolt all you need is a barrel ... and dies if you are going to reload.

the force is strong!

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/7mm-.284-180-gr-eld-match#!/
http://www.bergerbullets.com/7mm-195gr-extreme-outer-limits-elite-hunter/
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1983/284-dia-7mm-183-gr-HPBT
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/284-7mm-168gr-single-feed-mth-match-tactical-hunting
https://www.nosler.com/accubond-long-range-bullet/
https://warner-tool.com/collections/flat-line-projectiles/products/7-mm-151gr
http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/match-burner/

 

[Nature Boy]

OK, what about a 7mm-08AI?