Calibers and loads for high performance in short action rifles

[Flatbush Harry]

My preference for "high performance" in .308 Win is 175gr Federal GMM or handloaded equivalent (42.5gr IMR 4064, WW brass, CCI BR2 primers, 175gr SMK). I use this load in my precision rifles. For higher performance, I'll go to my Sako 85 in .300 WSM. I normally load 180gr Nosler AccuBonds for that rifle, which is primarily a hunting rifle. It is, however, superbly accurate, so I may try 178gr ELDs and 190gr SMKs and see if it likes them.

Cheers,

Harry

 

[1stmarine]

OK, what about a 7mm-08AI?

ok let me put it this way, what is wrong with the 7mm-08?
Not the average rifle and ammo you buy at cabelas but one that properly chambered with the right twist to use
some of the best bullets this caliber has to offer,

Could you live with a very good BC at a very decent speed of the "modest" 7mm/08 like the 162gr ELD below?
If you are going after elk can you leave with a factory 150gr ELX or a 168gr berger or Nosler or a 175gr ABLR?
What about the awesome 168gr berger VLD hybrid or even a solid copper one that can be pushed well over 2800fps?
We are talking about loads that give a trans-sonic range of 1600-1800 yards.
Even a modest 21" AR is going can put you past 1,400 yards.
IMO, grain per grain and yard per yard the most efficient case one can buy that is popular.
Again will have to re-barrel and reload to get the most out of it.

I mean, are 50 to 150 fps of more involved cartridges really going to make a huge difference in practical terms? Not for me, but do the math.





**Needless to say reload at your own discretion.
barrels, chamber versions, brass, powder batches and atmospherics affect the pressure and performance.
This is just for broad orientation and discussion and if you reload please check and double checkwith reloading and manufacturing data.
Also let me know if I made any mistakes when copying some of the load info you provided or you see anything
out of the ordinary that could be a typo/mistake.***

 

[1stmarine]

Let me know if you guys can read what we have so far otherwise I will try to snap a larger font.

Also regarding the solid bullets they are catching up with the fashions too and if you don't shoot a huge volume and
want to be competitive with the 308 this is a easy way. I think the long term answer is going to be the jacketed composite
with high bc but they need to be bonded so they do not blow up with the magnums. As demand grows prices will go
down although I would doubt they are going to be cheaper than many other great alternatives.

Here the marketing and sales machine from the SH. They put this on their website where you order them.
They actually work as advertised BC included. This is the 160gr for the 308 that works fine in autoloaders too.

 

[taliv]

Even for example the 6.5 creedmore. A perfectly good cartridge but what does it do that a 260 didn't? And why did the creedmore take off in the mass market where the 260 is pretty much now a custom gun only cartridge?

it's creedMOOR not more, and it is much better than the 260 because of the shoulder angle and because you can seat the bullets out where they should be and still use a standard AICS style magazine.

the reason it took off however, was because hornady got a bunch of people to support it. Remington has had the 260rem since what? the 50s? and never did anything with it except hunting ammo.

 

[someguy2800]

Actually the 260 has only be around since 1997. That's a good point on mag length

 

[1stmarine]

Exactly! Remington was a monopoly and didn't have to worry so much about competition.
But even in recent years they have started a few initiatives w/o a plan to follow through and some pretty poor strategic decisions along with them.
30RAR w/o assortment and stupid bolt face dimensions, 6.8 spc that was abandoned and only has evolved into the wonderful SPCII that we have today
thanks for the efforts of hunting enthusiasts and smaller companies still pending review of the obsolete SAAMI spec1.
What about the Gen II w/o the aftermarket support to promote the growth of enthusiast based and small partner companies?
It is all about having good product first but also marketing and specially following through with the enthusiasts and listening to them.
Remington like countless others use the spaghetti approach that is, throw it to the wall and see if it sticks.
Today even good marketing and smart internet campaigns can make succeed crappy products.
We have a few examples of calibers, rifles and other equipment that fall into that tacticool internet caliber and gun category.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

I think the .308, its proven long time performance says it all...and the 7mm-08 is just as good...that is all....

 

[1stmarine]

I think the .308, its proven long time performance says it all...and the 7mm-08 is just as good...that is all....

The planet is covered with 308 ammunition even in places where is not a service round.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

3. the 6.5-284 to scratch the six point five itch

This. http://www.6mmbr.com/SixFive284.html

 

[Gtscotty]

Let me know if you guys can read what we have so far otherwise I will try to snap a larger font.

If you're collecting loads from this thread, you've skipped over some folks, Mr. Borland and myself to name a few, maybe others.

We have a few examples of calibers, rifles and other equipment that fall into that tacticool internet caliber and gun category.

What calibers would you put in this category? 300 BLK is a no-brainer for me.

 

[1stmarine]

If you're collecting loads from this thread, you've skipped over some folks, Mr. Borland and myself to name a few, maybe others.
What calibers would you put in this category? 300 BLK is a no-brainer for me.

Not done yet. When I get a chance I will update the list.
Yes the BO is a good example of an Internet sensation.

 

[1stmarine]

Let me know if I am missing anything.
If I don't have any ammo brand or basic load info with avg. speeds I am not posting the load.
If you give me some details it will go on the list.
Thanks



**Needless to say reload at your own discretion.
barrels, chamber versions, brass, powder batches and atmospherics affect the pressure and performance.
This is just for broad orientation and discussion and if you reload please check and double checkwith reloading and manufacturing data.
Also let me know if I made any mistakes when copying some of the load info you provided or you see anything
out of the ordinary that could be a typo/mistake.***
.
.
.

 

[1stmarine]

One thing that came up via PM/offline about the COAL....

The 260, 7mm-08 the same way as the 243 and 270-08 Cat. ARE NOT too long for use in repeaters whether they are gas or bolt guns.
Of course this is determined by your free-bore or magazine system limitation, whichever comes first, but it runs fine even with pretty long bullets and in many popular magazines.

Bolt Short Action

THIS IS MAX FOR A SAAMI chamber. Sorry I don't have pics from the 260R but same idea anyway.

If one doesn't have the latest AX/AW and has concerns about jump I can tell you for example the older 7mm amax 162gr produced 1/2 moa at 2.910 COAL in the barrel tested.
This addressed another part of the discussion that has been accuracy and powder choices. While Varget is not the best performer is a very good
powder for many calibers including the 7 and worked great with the amaxes. I have not reloaded ELDs with varget but I expect will be very similar in speed and of course
more consistent due to the new tip fix from hornady.

These will shoot below moa even with the oldest AICS magazines at that magazine max coal.





In gas guns, even the longest VLDs can be used and hybrids do not seem to be so affected by
a longer or shorter jump. you have to find your spot.
Even if you do no have knights or HK magazines and have the shortest magazines like AR magpul
or standard DPMS still can load VLDs to spec for the AR w/o running over the ogive.

magpul



dpms


C procuts (now ASC) are inexpensive, good quality and will give you 2.875" avg (out if five) w.o. much conditioning and no need to gate them.




162gr eld or elx loaded at 2.850" from inexpensive ASC magazines produced submoa from the AR and bring a modest 21"
AR to 1500 yards transsnoic range.

I don't have pics of the match bullets but I have some White Tail AR loads tested from a AR I chambered for a friend.
This AR was chambered for long range with 8 twist and headspaced for the actual sized brass.
Next time I go out I will make pictures of long range loads shot from both the bolt gun and the AR. The R700 is a 1/2 moa
gun and the AR a 3/4 moa and 1 moa with budget bullets that is pretty good.

One will find the same kind of trend no matter what caliber and casing choice when using consistent components and some careful
reloading. The only consideration when dealing with copper solid bullets is the twist that is determined by the length of
those bullets.

 

[taliv]

The 260, 7mm-08 the same way as the 243 and 270-08 Cat. ARE NOT too long for use in repeaters whether they are gas or bolt guns.
Of course this is determined by your freebore and magazine system but it runs fine in many popular magazines.

they're not too long in the sense that you can stuff the bullet in there deep enough to make it feed from a magazine.
but they are too long in the sense that there is an optimal depth in the case for the base of the bullet, usually described in relation to the case neck/shoulder junction and 140g bullets must be seated very deep, so that the bullet base is well past the BODY/shoulder junction.

as i've mentioned before, i have some experience with this, having shot out 11 barrels of 260AI mostly in competitions. It was extremely accurate of course, but not nearly as consistent as other cartridges as it required constant tweaking, which is why i have moved to 6.5x47. there's a remarkable difference, and cartridges that you guys keep poo-pooing like the creedmoor share a lot of commonality, like longer necks and 30*ish shoulders instead of 20* or 40*

The only consideration when dealing with copper solid bullets is the twist that is determined by the length of
those bullets.

what will be interesting to see is if the small bore solids have the same affect on bore life as the large (50cal) solids do. again, i know lots of people who bought a 50 ct box or two, but i have yet to see a single review from someone who has worn out a barrel with one. considering your average PRS shooter is going to go through at least a barrel per year, and considering that flat line has been selling those for several years now, there must be something that is keeping people from them. (and it's not cost, as these are people who pay $2000 for a tripod)

 

[mshootnit]

For me, having a discussion of "high performance in short action rifles" is at best incomplete without mention of the excellent WSM's.
No I know the intention is to benefit those who want to use 308 or 284 Win based cartridges, and that is fine, but such limitation is not stated in the thread title.
I want to at least mention my real performance load for my 270 WSM.
.277 cal 130 Gr. Sierra 64.5 gr RL19. 3150 FPS 2865 ft. pounds muzzle energy
Kimber 8400M 24" barrel.
THAT is short action performance. Lets just not compare performance of the fourth round in the gun.

 

[1stmarine]

they're not too long in the sense that you can stuff the bullet in there deep enough to make it feed from a magazine.

Like I said it depends on the magazine system. I tend to stay away from the shorter ones but also do not pay an eye for extra 10 thousands of an inch because it does nothing for me.
The intention is not to poop over ayone's choice of caliber here. There are good reasons for a shorter case with a 30 degree angle and good reasons for one derived straight from the
parent. This is a world of trade offs always.

I have have used the same magazines for the 260, 7mm-08 and 308 w/o any problems nor limitations that are the same type of magazines Zak Smith used in his 260
setup that are very popular all over the world...
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=2

Regarding the copper bullets you are right. They are often used to setup records of accuracy and long range ballistics yet they do not proliferate and go mainstream.
I am not sure why that is but I think even having been around for a long time they have been playing with different profiles and testing different ideas.

I know overseas there is a trend because many ranges are going lead free due to local regulations but at the same time those bullets designs are reaching more
maturity in terms of what people expect.
The nice thing about Swiss lathe bullets is that they can be made very precise and they can also do modifications w/o retooling anything since they are cut from
bar stock w/o need for swagging.
But moving forward I think we will see more proliferation of lead free in other forms like polymer and powder mixed wrapped in typical jackets.
I have tried some of the GS customs that are very popular in the South continents but cannot justify them for my type of use.

I do think however some of the cutting edge bullets specially the hunting/tactical ones bring a new dimension to long range hunting specially because how well they still work at lower
impact speeds vs. some of the other brands where that type of characteristic is more variable.

Now, would I switch right away form a proven and time tested bonded? probably not but I think we will see more testing and data and more people using them over time.

 

[taliv]

6.5 SAUM is a solid choice if you can find brass. lots of competitors run 140g up to the usual match speed limits of 3200

and i agree

 

[1stmarine]

For me, having a discussion of "high performance in short action rifles" is at best incomplete without mention of the excellent WSM's.
No I know the intention is to benefit those who want to use 308 or 284 Win based cartridges, and that is fine, but such limitation is not stated in the thread title.
I want to at least mention my real performance load for my 270 WSM.
.277 cal 130 Gr. Sierra 64.5 gr RL19. 3150 FPS 2865 ft. pounds muzzle energy
Kimber 8400M 24" barrel.
THAT is short action performance. Lets just not compare performance of the fourth round in the gun.

Nobody is going to argue about the amazing possibilities and capabilities of short magnums in short actions.
I think this could be a total new discussion about S.M. versions but w/o being restricted by the length of the action so
some people might choose them for long range with very long bullets.
I will add yours to the list anyway. Thanks for sharing.

 

[mshootnit]

I have 145gr ELD X bullets for 270 WSM would those not work for long range in a std. Kimber 8400M? I have not tried.

 

[1stmarine]

7mm WSM




No doubt the more powder we stack behind the more speed we are going to get. That is simple phisycs.
But also when building a rifle with the tight twist required for the bullets at hand there is so much far one can go.
6mm and 6.5mm hypersonic magnums will be limited by bullet choice as many of the popular bullets will simply
disintegrate a few yards in front of the muzzle. Berger, sierra, hornady will blow up as they are not designed
to take those torque forces. I don't mean over-bored cartridges are not appealing but just some caution needs
to be taken. The bullet selection is restricted by the construction at hypersonic speeds. I am not talking about
a lot more it could be 3300 fps with 1:8 twist when we start to see a lot of problems with the smaller bores.

 

[1stmarine]

I have 143gr ELD X bullets for 270 WSM would those not work for long range in a std. Kimber 8400M? I have not tried.

what is the max coal for that rifle/mag?
I think you need to find out the max from the mag and also free-bore so your limit is going to be whichever comes first.
one can always single feed, obviously.

 

[1stmarine]

I am not sure if there is an interest in the 6.5BR for the compact action like the AR15 or a compact bolt action.
I think it is an awesome round for those who want to consolidate calibers based on same bore/bullets that can be used in AR15, AR10 and bolt action obviously.
Perhaps this should be the subject for a different thread.
I posted because this is a cat that is very easy and a lot of fun. Perhaps one of the
most powerful super easy calibers for the AR15.

 

[LoonWulf]

Im messing with a slow twist (1-10) 6mm-284. Ive only got preliminary data, but its looking to be able to push 95-100grn projectiles (coal under 2.85) at 3300-3400fps from a 24" barrel. This i with standard "hunting" type bullets. I did make a dummy round with a 103eldx, and my chamber would have had it at sub 2.9 (if im remembering correctly). Im hopping to get out and run some new loads this weekend, now that ive got the magazine issue semi figgured out. Ill update with velocities from that.

I also have data for the 6.5CM with 143s at a nudge over 2800 from a 22" barrel. Loads were beyond listed, but observed pressure signs were non existent till going another grain higher, and getting flat primers and some resistance on bolt lift.

I also have a 24" barreled 6.5-284, but ill need a stock for that....or maybe ill make a fixture for the short term....before doing any load testing.

 

[1stmarine]

Im messing with a slow twist (1-10) 6mm-284. Ive only got preliminary data, but its looking to be able to push 95-100grn projectiles (coal under 2.85) at 3300-3400fps from a 24" barrel. This i with standard "hunting" type bullets. I did make a dummy round with a 103eldx, and my chamber would have had it at sub 2.9 (if im remembering correctly). Im hopping to get out and run some new loads this weekend, now that ive got the magazine issue semi figgured out. Ill update with velocities from that.

I also have data for the 6.5CM with 143s at a nudge over 2800 from a 22" barrel. Loads were beyond listed, but observed pressure signs were non existent till going another grain higher, and getting flat primers and some resistance on bolt lift.

I also have a 24" barreled 6.5-284, but ill need a stock for that....or maybe ill make a fixture for the short term....before doing any load testing.

Wow that is a hot 6mm!

Thanks for sharing. If you have some details like case, powders, primers, coal, etc.. I will add them to the list.

I think the 1:10 will allow you to use some of the 85, 90 and even 100gr sp if they are not too long. Lighter varmint bullets and more speed might lead to jacket separation with the thinner jackets
but 10 twist should help to some degree. hard to tell w/o testing.

 

[1stmarine]

When you give us a load please provide as much as you can from your testing....

Caliber ID | Bullet Grain | Bullet ID |BC G1 |Brass Primer | Powder | Powder weight grs. | COAL Firearm / Barrel | Firearm Type | Barrel Length | Speed fps

Examples
6.5 Creed 140 Sierra 140gr SMK 0.535 Win FACTORY FACTORY 2.800 30" Bolt action @farmerboy78 BOLT_SA 30 2,880
6.5 Creed 143 Hdy 143gr ELDX 0.625 Hornady WinLR Hunter 45.00 2.800 22" Ruger Predator @jmr40 BOLT_SA 22 2,720