Calling All Sheepdogs...

[Anthony]

Hello Everyone,

Drawing from the old adage of the sheep, sheepdog, and wolf as well as assuming that most of us here on The High Road fall into the sheepdog category I had a rather interesting question to throw out.

How many of you are just sick and tired of the sheep?

How many of you are just fed up with the constant whining, fearful behavior, inaction, and cowardice?

How many of you are just tired of them wanting to pull your teeth and declaw you to the point that you too become defenseless sheep?

In my various studies I have found references in many warrior codes (e.g., Bushido) of how the warrior is to feel compassion and practice patience with the sheep, but it sometimes just builds and builds.

Personally I have been doing this so long that it has built up on me to the point that I can pick them out of a group and will have nothing to do with them beyond casual social contact. Further, I have also noticed that they can tell I am not one of them and it bothers most of them as well.

While my life is highly simplified and more pleasant as a result I feel as if I am betraying the code I should be living by.

Am I off the reservation here?

How do the other sheepdogs here on The High Road keep their patience and compassion for these cowardly creatures while adhereing to the code they follow?

All thoughts are welcome...thank you.

 

[cuchulainn]

You mention some Eastern disciplines. Focus on their methods of achieving humility and calmness. If anything, such disciplines are about balance -- it sounds like you're akilter. Also, good breathing techniques, proper hydration and plenty of physical exercise are essential to such inner balance.

 

[skidmark]

How do the other sheepdogs here on The High Road keep their patience and compassion for these cowardly creatures while adhereing to the code they follow?

I think you just gave yourself a clue there. Maybe even two clues, but let's stick with the first one.

As I see it, sheep are not cowards at all. They are herd animals, which means they want to all stick together. They have a "leader", who tells them where to go and when to move or stay still. They pretty much follow that "leader" as long as things are going well.

Sheep are not agressive towards other animals - especially wolves and such ilk. They have learned over the centuries that 1) bunching tightly together at the first hint of trouble, and 2) running while bunched tightly together at the first sign of trouble, will usually mean that the greatest number of them will continue to constitute the herd. In order to accomplish these outcomes, sheep have also learned that it is better to allow anybody to cry "Wolf!" than depend on designated criers. This allows the sheep with the greatest timitity to not only set off the stampede, but to get a head start on getting to the safety of the center of the flock.

You see, for sheep survival means the survival of the herd, as opposed to survival of the individual. (That's sort of redundant, as sheep are not individuals but "herd animals.") That being given, there is no cowardice in running at the hint of trouble, or of allowing the weak, sick, lame, old or young to be taken down so long as the rest of the herd gets away.

Sheepdogs, on the other hand, have this idea that each and every sheep is precious and must be protected no matter how hard it tries to get cut out of the herd, taken down, and eaten. Actually, that was said wrong - it is more on the lines of "no matter how much less than the rest of the herd the specific sheep is able/capable of avoiding being cut out, taken down, and eaten.

My own epifany was when I realized that saving the most sheep was based on the profit motive of the shepard, as opposed to anything else. In the "wild" sheep and wolves seem to reach some sort of equlibrium - when there are lots of sheep that can be taken, there are lots of wolves; when there are only a few sheep available the number of wolves declines (or at least does not increase).

Now let's look at that "code" of yours. If you are truely a sheepdog, I would suggest that the "code" is not yours but belongs to the shepard. I do not want to get into any discussion of who/what the shepard is. I just want to posit that it is the shepard who decided that it would be best to have the greatest number of sheep at all times and that means not letting the wolves take any of the sheep.

Now a "rebuttal" question: Is it possible to coexist with the sheep without having to be a shepdog?

I never wanted to be a policeman, fireman, or caped superhero who would constantly be called on to save the world. At the same time, I have always wanted to be able to protect myself and mine from the wolves.

I am willing to tolerate the sheep to the extent that they do not intrude into my lifestyle, or cause me and mine to become easier prey. That means I will, for the most part, permit the sheepdog to safeguard me and mine as well as the sheep. however, when the sheepdog starts setting rules that do not advance safety for the herd, but incease the dependency on the sheepdog, I will oppose the sheepdog. If guns had never been invented, wolves would have some different fearsome weapon, and then the sheepdogs would want to make all sorts of laws to control that weapon.

Why is it that neither the sheepdog nor the shepard wants to eliminate the wolf? Could it be that without the wolf there would be no need for them?

stay safe.

skidmark

*edited for spelling. did I get all of the misteakes?*

 

[The Drew]

As skidmark hinted at, nature doesn't just consist of Sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves. There are all kinds of other nasties that just want to be left alone and protect their families... I.E Bears, Badgers, porcupines, wolverines, ect... None of these animals do the wolves want to tangle with as they know that they can defend themselves and most likely the wolves will end up worse for wear.

The problem comes in when all of those "dangerous animals" are lumped together with the wolf and "for the sake of the sheep" they are hunted and eliminated because they have the ability to defend themselves...

 

[ilbob]

God made sheep to be eaten. People are not sheep.

The analogy of some people's behavioral patterns to that of sheep is interesting but is really not relevant because people are not sheep.

Sheep are property, and live at the will of the owner. When he wants to send them off to the slaughterhouse they go, because thats the way it is with sheep.

Sheep are protected by the owner because they have inherent value to the owner. That is also why he owns sheep dogs, to protect his investment in sheep. The sheep dogs do not have any choice in the matter anymore than the sheep do. And if they turn out to be not so good at guarding the sheep, guess what happens to the sheep dog?

By the way, there is an interesting analogy on the sheep dog side too. It is not all that unusual for the sheep dogs to start killing sheep, in which case the sheep dogs have to be offed by the owner.

 

[Vitamin G]

Eh, for the most part I just hang out on the edge of the pack with a couple other sheepdogs. I observe, encourage a few sheep here and there to come learn to use their hooves and grow sharp teeth. Sometimes when I need more food, gasoline, books, computer games, etc, I'll have to run to the giant sheep store and get some supplies and interact, but then I go right back to the company of those more similar to me. The fun paradox is that the quality of the people i prefer to associate myself with, is a quality that is usually actively hidden (being armed).
If the wolf comes, and the sheep began to cluster, i'd likely (and thankfully, i can only guess because i've never been in the situation) just pull out the really cute ewe that comes to my doghouse every now and again.
Its always interesting when using the sheep/sheepdog/wolf metaphor, because in our actual world, most wolves don't want to eat the sheep, they likely just want to corner one, slap it around a bit and feel better about themselves, and come out of the deal with some free wool. You can trade the wool for a $1 double cheeseburger. If you kill the sheep, it won't make more wool for you to steal later.
To be honest, I have no idea what I'd do if the wolves actually started eating the sheep. I'd like to think i'd do the right thing. I really HOPE that i'd do the right thing. On the other hand, its just so expensive to explain how your day went to the shepherd...

 

[another okie]

You have to look at it from the sheep's perspective to empathize. Remember in the movie "Babe" when one of the sheep calls a sheep dog a wolf? The pig says, no, that' s a dog. And the sheep says, they're all wolves, just wait and see.

 

[SSN Vet]

analogy is limited..

I think the sheep dog /sheep analogy breaks down pretty quickly....

People are not sheep....though they may bleat just like them.

Reality is, those people you call sheep are cut from the same genetic cloth as those people you call wolves.

And as far as those "leaders of the sheep" who advocate the liberal agenda...they are to me, just wolves in sheep’s clothing. What are they really trying to accomplish......I've come to the conclusion it's all about increasing their personal power and wealth. They are very shrewd about doing this, as are all power mongers. They realize that they can sell a nice fuzzy, touchy-feely agenda to the bleating masses and vilify the political right, and achieve great power, wealth and influence. I believe they are as cold, calculating and manipulative as any oil baron ever was.

I don't think a person can "do good" in this world and then turn a blind eye to "evil". So I feel obliged to oppose evil, wherever it is. Actively seeking to shut up and defund the "professors" who advocate that molesting children is good for them, is just as needful in opposing evil as stopping the night stalker with the business end of your preferred CCW.

Those who call good evil and evil good, and then go on to teach and preach that to others, are just a culpable as those who prey on little ones and then plead "I'm sick" so don't punish me....but reward me with three hots and a cot and cable t.v. at some nice place with air-conditioning, so I don't have to work for a living.

"Sheep" are simply those who have been duped into believing that a good statistical probability that "it won't happen to me" is as good as it gets, because doing battle with a wolf might require a little self examination and confrontation (heaven forbid, not that) with their own wolf like attitudes (like say, let's tax the socks off that guy across the street, to pay for some social program, so I don't have to personally invest in making society more equitable, buy paying a fair price for the goods and services I consume).

Feeling sorry for the "sheep" and investing a ton of emotional energy trying to empathize with them is not something I do with the limited and precious time I have on this planet.

Confronting (most often with friendly debate or personal example) those "sheep like" fence sitters and pressing on with doing good myself....these are enterprises worth undertaking.

 

[crofrog]

Anothy I agree with what you said a lot.

I'll protect them, but I don't want social interaction with them.

 

[progunner1957]

Anthony,

I am currently reading a book titled Living With the 1911 - A fresh Look at the Fighting Handgun written by Robert H. Boatman. In it, he interviews Louis Awerbuck, chief handgun instructor at Gunsite Academy. In the interview, Louis talks about the warrior spirit and mindset, saying "This stuff is 5000 years old. It's the same mindset as the samurai, the ninja, Genghis Khan, the Romans, the Greeks, the Spanish - you can just keep on going back through the ages. It was always the same thing."

He also notes that "I get civilian classes, especially in California, with a large Oriental clientele. You can see the difference in the mind-set straightaway. A lot sharper, a lot stronger, a lot more fighting oriented, and deeper thinkers."

IMO, we all would do well to study the ways of Bushido. Japan is an island nation; throughout thousands of years of history, Japan was undefeated in war until WWII - and then it took the United States use of nuclear weapons to force surrender. Now that's a nation with a warrior spirit!

In spite of Imperial Japan's aggregious error of descending into military fascism during the WWII era, the warrior code - Bushido - is a good thing. It is something we can all learn from and enrich our lives from.

During my younger days, I spent many years studying Judo and Tae Kwon Do under a 7th degree black belt master from Korea. The Korean concept of Bushido is very similar to Japan's and is something that once truly instilled in a student, never goes away.

Today, I am 48 and disabled due to Scleroderma and am no longer capable of engaging in or prevailing in unarmed combat. Therefore, my primary martial art and form of self defense and preservation of family involves the 1911 autoloader. Bushido applies to shooting as surely as it does to empty hand martial arts.

Regarding The Sheeple, I have many more "friends" who are Sheeple than I do friends who have a similar worldview to mine. I enjoy time spent with my Sheeple friends, but there's so much we cannot talk about and do together because they simply don't get it.

While I enjoy time spent with my Sheeple friends, I revel in time spent with my Bushido-minded friends. We go shooting; we go to gun shops and lust after the guns that the shop has that we don't. We swap shooting stories and look at the targets we have saved.

We get out our guns and enjoy handling them, manipulating them and admiring them. Such a practice would cause my Sheeple friends to wet themselves.

There is always always a 1911 at the ready in my home, but it is well hidden when my Sheeple friends come-a-calling. I carry in their presence, but they are never aware of it. Someone has to be ready to take care of business, should the need arise.

I recently started saving and laminating my best targets to show my Sheeple friends. I had a Sheeple friend tell me once, "Handguns aren't accurate enough to be used for self defense." I replied "Then why do Police officers carry them?" No response. Now I have physical proof otherwise - 8 shots with a 1911 at 7 yards offhand in a one inch group. 50 shots offhand with a 1911 at 7 yards rapid fire in a 2"x3" one hole group, with five 9 ring flyers.

I can live with The Sheeple, up to the point where they attempt to force me to become one of them - that's where I draw the line. I refuse to be defenseless; I refuse to be a victim; I simply refuse to be a Sheeple.

Louis Awerbuck says regarding the Sheeple mentality, "You would think it would be a hell of alot easier to shoot a human who is running toward you with a Bowie knife than a deer who is running away. I think it is a function of being dumbed down as a society... Self preservation is being bred out of us. It's cyclical. Every 100 to 200 years, it happens."

I would highly recommend Living With the 1911 as well as Tactical Reality - both written by Louis Awerbuck and both available from Paladin Press, as well as the movie, "The Last Samurai." While the movie is not 100% historically accurate, it is close and the concept of Bushido is addressed very well. The movie is not nearly as "Hollywooded up" as alot of movies about martial arts, war, the military, etc. and as a student of Bushido, it is very well done, IMO.

 

[Anthony]

Analogy is Severely Limited

Many of you are right in pointing out how severely limited the analogy is, but it serves its purpose here properly modified by many of your comments on its limitations.

I agree intensely with you Progunner. I am a practicioner of the Filipino brand of martial arts (e.g., Kali, Modern Arnis) and have studied Bushido as well as Lt. Colonel Forest Morgan's book, "The Martial Way" yet I feel this only buffers the distaste I have for the sheep.

I admire your ability to have friends amongst the sheep. I have not been able to do that for years. Through it all I am happier this way, but still feel the will to help others should the situation arise. I think I am with you Vitamin G on hanging out on the edge of the herd.

For a couple of years now I have been instructed a partially blind woman from my parish who was born one of us. She has a strong self preservation instinct with a kind heart and a desire to help others. Initially I was amazed at her hunger for such instruction in the use of weapons and the philosophy behind it until I met her husband. A true coward and sheeple extraordinaire. We're talking about the poster child here. It will be a cold day in the netherworld when I take his kind to the range and this was a condition of teaching her...I don't teach sheep.

"The Last Samauri" is a superb film and captures the spirit of Bushido very well. Another favorite that captures it a bit differently is Shogun, the miniseries from 1980 which is now available on DVD. Great show!

 

[Dravur]

I dunno...

I think of myself s more of a Badger.... kind of Ornery, like to dig holes, and will snarl and fight if cornered....

Plus, I don't care about the sheep. I do not go armed to protect sheep. I go armed to protect my badgerness and my badger friends and family. If Sheep want to remain sheep, that's fine with me. When they decide to become badger's. I will welcome them to the den.

Until then, the Sheep can rely on the sheepdogs <police> who try and protect them. Even a good sheepdog loses a sheep now and then.

 

[Anthony]

Wolves?

Does anyone ever mimic a wolf more than a sheep dog?

 

[svtruth]

Just to overextend

the analogy, many sheepdogs are not used to protect the sheep, but to herd and control them.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I think people who self-righteously proclaim themselves to be sheep-dogs are mainly just a bunch of dick-waving arm chair commandos who would pee on themselves at the first sign of danger anyway.

 

[azredhawk44]

Japan was undefeated in war until WWII

Not true.

Just after the Tokugawa concentration of power in the Shogunate in 1600, the Japanese launched an assault against the mainland through the Korean peninsula. They wanted China.

They got their @sses handed to them.

The Okinawans refused conscription for that war. One of the southern daimyos (forgot his name just now) launched a punitive expedition against Okinawa, and was fought to a stalemate by farmers.

Anthony:

Screw the sheep and the sheepdogs and the wolves. You owe yourself your own quest for contentment and security. Find it by whatever means also leaves you with pride.

 

[Working Man]

I'm not going to get into who is what and why but the below statement
concerns me.

How many of you are just tired of them wanting to pull your teeth and declaw you to the point that you too become defenseless sheep?

Having one's claws and fangs taken away does not make one a sheep. If
you think it does you are closer to being a sheep than anything else. It is
a mindset, a way of life and a way of looking at the world. If claws and
fangs are what separates sheep from sheepdog (i.e. rights and weapons), at
least, at the very least, we are armed to the teeth with arms and teeth.

 

[Anthony]

Amen, I say!

Amen to you, Working Man!

 

[Jeff White]

This thread illustrates a disturbing trend I'm seeing in the online firearms culture. That trend is an elitist attiude towards the rest of society.

I don't know if the passage of CCW laws throughout the country has empowered certain individuals to arm themselves for the wrong reasons and now they think of themselves as somehow superior human beings because they have made a personal dedcision to be armed.

I don't know if it's because there aren't a lot of challenges that are life threateningly dangerous in modern American society that has caused a segment of the gun culture to look at themselves like modern day knights or samauri because they carry firearm on their person as they go about their daily business.

Anthony said;

Personally I have been doing this so long that it has built up on me to the point that I can pick them out of a group and will have nothing to do with them beyond casual social contact. Further, I have also noticed that they can tell I am not one of them and it bothers most of them as well.

This is the kind of attitude that will minimalize the gun culture to the point that it will cease to exist in a couple generations.

The sheep, sheepdogs and wolves analogy that Dr. Grossman uses in his Bulletproof Mind seminars does not fit the majority of the members of THR. I'm sure that this is going to burst some bubbles, but if you aren't a police officer, member of the military or employed in emergency public service (fire and EMS) you cannot be a sheepdog. Those people are societies sheepdogs, it is their job to go into harms way to protect and defend others.

If you carry a gun and you think that carrying one makes you a sheepdog you are wrong. Your CCW permit is not a peace officers commission and I'm unaware of any state that issues red and blue tights and a cape with their permits. If your primary purpose for carrying a firearm is to protect society and the innocent, then I suggest you rethink your decision. Unless you are in one of the professions listed in the preceeding paragragh you are another member of society. If you can't live with that, then I suggest you head on down to the recruiting station or find out when your local police department or emergency services agency is hiring next. We're always looking for good people.

I think it's ironic that there are numerous threads in General Gun Discussions and Legal and Political about the blue wall of silence and how elitist and clannish police officers are, and then we find that CCW holders are starting to exhibit those same tendancies.

We even see members looking down on those segemnt. Those who don't choose to live the same way we do are cowards. I think you need to think about that statement. I think you need to think long and hard about it. It reminds me of all the fit in the press when Prince Andrew (or one of them) washed out of Royal Marine Commando training. All the criticism and wailing and knashing of teeth done by people who couldn't even contemplate trying it for themselves.

No way of life, be it a lawyer's, doctor's, policeman's, soldier's, bricklayers or ditch diggers is for everyone. And you can't look down at those who don't choose to walk the same path you do. We need all those other people too. They are just as valuable to society as anyone else.

Quite frankly you aren't special because you choose to carry a firearm for your own protection. You aren't special or more valuable to society if you really and truly fit the definition of a sheepdog. It's just what you are, and yes there may be times when you're more valuable at a certain moment in time then others around you but that fits into any profession. The last thing I want is to be wheeled into surgery and find a bunch of my brother officers scrubbed up with scapels in their hands...At that time I'll opt for a surgeon. I don't think I'd have the guys on the Tac Team over to tuckpoint my house either....

Before you start getting into this, "I'm a superior human being because I carry a gun" mindset, stop and think....about what kind of RKBA will exist in this country in a couple generations if everyone thinks that way.

Jeff

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I agree with Jeff fully.

 

[Beren]

I'm not a sheep, sheepdog, or shepard. I'm a fox. Where are those darn chickens hiding and how do I get to them? Yum.

Sorry, I think folks take a general analogy and then try to apply it too specifically to their own lives. As Jeff says, carrying a gun and learning to use it makes you no better and no worse than anyone else. You're exercising a right and freedom due you as a thinking person. If someone else chooses not to exercise that right, it makes them no more ethical a person than you. It may lessen their chances of surviving under certain circumstances, but that's a risk they willingly assume.

Look after yourself as you see fit, and let others do likewise.

If you don't like hanging around people who don't like guns or believe in active self-defense, then simply accept it as such. Don't dress it up in sheeps' clothing.

 

[Anthony]

Jeff: Not My Point At All

My use of the analogy was to give a general basis to the discussion and attract others to the conversation.

Jeff: Your generalization of elitism is offensive to say the least. In no way, shape, or form did I ever suggest that I viewed myself as some kind of modern day Samauri, etc. Their values are what several of us admire and long to emulate. This concept seems lost on you given the content of your response.

Carrying a gun is simply carrying a tool.

It is the person that makes a difference in this world and one need not be in law enforcement or the military to do so. Further, one need not be armed to do so. If you see a woman stranded on the side of the road and stop to help her it is the same thing. Even an action as simple and minor as smiling at a lonely elderly person at the mall and saying hello might make them feel wonderful inside while adhering to the rules of Bushido...and anyone who has studied it will remember its admonishment to respect the weak and the elderly. Living Bushido and practicing the martial arts has nothing to do with being a modern day Samauri and everything to do with trying to live with the honor and respect practiced by these noble warriors and countless others who have lived by similar codes throughout history.

Who I choose to associate with in my free time has little bearing on this and absolutely nothing to do with being a gunshop commando which I most certainly am not!

 

[Jeff White]

Anthony,
If you weren't placing yourself on a plain above people who don't follow the same path that you do, please explain these comments from your opening post:

Begin with the title, Calling all Sheepdogs

Were you referring to Dr. Grossman's essay that has been posted here at THR several times? If so, were you asking everyone to chime in or just sheepdogs? Your title was implying that those who carry arms i.e. the members of THR were the people you asked to respond.

Then we get to this:

How many of you are just sick and tired of the sheep?

If the THR members are the sheepdogs, then who are the sheep? I assumed that you meant the same people who don't carry arms. So just who are the sheep that you're so sick and tired of?

How many of you are just fed up with the constant whining, fearful behavior, inaction, and cowardice?

What constant whining, fearful behavior, inaction and cowardice from this undefined group of people that you refer to as sheep are you referring to?

If you weren't trying to say: "I'm special because I choose to be armed and by God, I'm sick and tired of all those who don't make the same life decision I did whining about how bad things are." What exactly were you trying to say?

In my various studies I have found references in many warrior codes (e.g., Bushido) of how the warrior is to feel compassion and practice patience with the sheep, but it sometimes just builds and builds.

Again another reference to how those who don't follow the same code you do are shomehow inferior. You say you are supposed to feel compassion for them and have patience with them, like they were children who needed your enlightenment. If that isn't elitist, I don't know what is.

Then we get to this:

Personally I have been doing this so long that it has built up on me to the point that I can pick them out of a group and will have nothing to do with them beyond casual social contact. Further, I have also noticed that they can tell I am not one of them and it bothers most of them as well.

While my life is highly simplified and more pleasant as a result I feel as if I am betraying the code I should be living by.

If you aren't telling us that people who don't live by the same code you do aren't worth socializing with, what are you saying?

And finally:

How do the other sheepdogs here on The High Road keep their patience and compassion for these cowardly creatures while adhereing to the code they follow?

How condescending, asking how the other sheepdogs keep their patience and compassion for these cowardly creatures. Just how am I supposed to take that? I think anyone reading it at face value will come away with the same impression I did.

It's not like I haven't been exposed to those kinds of thoughts before. I even had some thoughts like that myself when I was younger. It's only natural to want to be an elite, to be special. The Army gets all kinds of mileage out of skill badges. Everyone wants one. But the real soldiers I served with didn't need one, you could tell they were good by how they carried themselves and how they wore their gear. Believe me, I met too many people who collected those badges but had very little idea about how to soldier....I've seen it in young cops. The world is suddenly divded into cops and scumbags, even family has to fit into one of the categories or they just cease to exist.

If my take on your original post was so wrong, please clarify just what you wanted to discuss.

Jeff

 

[crofrog]

I try to avoid hanging out with people who I don't get along with and who have widley different views on the life the universe and everything. Doesn't mean I think they are bad people. Simply means I don't want to have dinner with them.

 

[Anthony]

Jeff still doesn't get it, but Crofrog does.

Jeff,

Just because I don't care to associate with certain people doesn't put me on a level above or below them. It just means I don't care for them and care to spend my time elsewhere. The thread was never meant as a vehicle to try and smear me or debate the finer points of Dr. Grossman's thoughts.

Obviously you do not care for the tone of this thread and have resorted to tactics tantamount to character assassination to try and discredit me for simply expressing my views on a subject. The fact you are a Moderator only makes it worse.

The point of this post was outlined in my last response to your rudeness and this void was filled quite nicely by others who have responded to me. You do not wish to believe what you have read which is a defacto method of calling me a liar which is even more offensive than your initial foray into this thread.

So just as I do not seek to enlighten liberals I do not wish to explain something to you that I fear you will never understand about Bushido or any other such code. You proved that to me in your last post. If you want to sit around the campfire with the people I don't care for and sing kumbaya so be it, but I won't be there.

Close the thread if you don't like the tone of it. I've gotten what I wanted out of it already and have no further use of it.