Calling shot from front sight position: Having trouble understanding

[DefiantDad]

I am having trouble understanding and executing the technique of calling the shot based on where the front sight is, at the moment of the bullet breaking out of the muzzle.

Everything is happening so fast, I can't seem to concentrate sufficiently for things to do the Hollywood slo-mo and figure what is what.

Can someone give tips on this, or if I am understanding things wrong or what?

I focus on the target, move the sights to align with the target, focus on the front sight, squeeze the trigger (why do people say "press" the trigger?) until I get the surprise break, and at that moment it is already too fast for me to figure out what is what and the shot has broken and the bullet is already downrange (in fact already on the target) and my gun is already off aim and I have to reposition it for the second shot.

Because it is a surprise break, or at least I try to simulate a surprise break by trying not to think about anticipating the exact trigger travel (by concentrating on the front sight), I can't therefore anticipate the moment of thinking about where the sight is (i.e., by avoiding the "NOW!" thinking, I therefore cannot "record" where the sight is to call the shot).

 

[LiveLife]

Video of "shot calling" by Travis Tomasie, US Army AMU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_aD5U2OT8

 

[DefiantDad]

Thanks, that helped a LOT in terms of me understanding how it is supposed to be done. Somehow I had it in my head that I had to figure out the front-sight directional movement, instead of trying to remember where the front-sight is (was) on the fuzzy target sight picture, and ignore its movement after that point in time.

His heads-up camera system was interesting but unfortunately it was not exactly his sight picture, so it was a bit misleading and confusing when I was trying to call the shot based on his video segment; also you can see that the camera angle did not actually line up the front and back sights properly. Only a weapon-mounted camera will actually do that properly. It was a bit confusing and I spent a few minutes trying to play back the video slowly, but anyway it's fine. I am better educated on this than before.

Again, thanks for the video. I have to (literally) keep this in mind next time at the range.

 

[9mmepiphany]

if I am understanding things wrong or what?

I suspect this is the problem

I focus on the target, move the sights to align with the target, focus on the front sight, squeeze the trigger (why do people say "press" the trigger?)

Because many people hear the word squeeze and tighten their whole hand rather than just flexing the trigger finger...you can tell by watching their strong thumb

...until I get the surprise break, and at that moment it is already too fast for me to figure out what is what and the shot has broken and the bullet is already downrange (in fact already on the target)

Actually you read the front sight between the moment the shot breaks and just as the barrel begins the flips upward.

If you are watching the front sight, you will see which direction it moves at the moment you feel the trigger break and before you feel it hit the rear of it's travel

...and my gun is already off aim and I have to reposition it for the second shot.

If you aren't seeing the sight move as the muzzle flip starts, you aren't really focused on it.

If you are using correct technique, you shouldn't have to reposition it for your next shots...it should return to your original POA

Because it is a surprise break, or at least I try to simulate a surprise break by trying not to think about anticipating the exact trigger travel (by concentrating on the front sight), I can't therefore anticipate the moment of thinking about where the sight is (i.e., by avoiding the "NOW!" thinking, I therefore cannot "record" where the sight is to call the shot).

If you are looking at the sight, you have recorded it in your subconscious. You shouldn't be trying to anticipate seeing it, you should just be an interested observer..just see it as it dips, moves to the sides or jumps straight up in the notch. If it isn't jumping straight up, your shot isn't going where you were aiming

If you try to anticipate seeing it move, you are just fighting against yourself

 

[owlhoot]

Dad, you're trying to swallow your elephant rather than eating him one bite at a time.

It is impossible for the human mind to think of two things at the same time. You cannot concentrate on trigger control and the front sight simultaneously. If you try, it means your mind is flashing from one objective to the other, and you, consequently, aren't really focused on either.

You will not be able to call your shots until after you have become a pretty good marksman. That is to say you will have to have more than a passing acquaintance with all of the fundamentals of marksmanship: sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, follow through, breathing, grip, etc.

Most shooters who are less than expert may think they are concentrating on the front sight, but they aren't in most cases. When you really learn to concentrate, nothing else will exist in the world at the moment other than the shooter and the front sight. You will be able to ignore distractions, even acute pain. You will see exactly where the front sight was when the shot breaks. And you will be able to call your shot with considerable precision.

In order to give your full concentration to the front sight, you must have complete confidence in your trigger control. It is on automatic pilot. You do not think about it. Of course, it is pointless to try to call a shot if you haven't already mastered trigger control. You may be able to shoot a decent score at 25 or 50 yards, without having full mastery over trigger control, but you can't reliably call a shot.

Dry firing is helpful in working on fundamentals. Trigger control is pretty easy. The bear is working on eliminating the flinch that comes with anticipating the shot. Ball and dummy exercises will help that.

 

[DefiantDad]

ok thanks for all this advice folks. Great info.

 

[LiveLife]

I spent a few minutes trying to play back the video slowly ... but I have to (literally) keep this in mind next time at the range.

When I first started shooting USPSA, I was in the same boat as you ... wanting to learn to shoot properly but there was sooooo much to learn.

One of the best coaching I got from a regional USPSA shooter was to create a mental video of what I was going to do and slow the video down. He had me start with drawing from the holster to the first double-tap then onto running the entire stage in my head in slow motion.

Exercise 1:

Imagine you are drawing your pistol from the holster and firing double-taps at two 1/2 sheet of 8x11 copy paper targets at 7 yards. Once you got a slow motion video done of that task, duplicate the slow motion with your cleared pistol, even the recoil by voicing "bang ... bang". If you find yourself fidgeting with your grip/POA, you may need to slow the video waaaaay down to practice until you can duplicate without making any adjustments. Once your actual motion matches your mental video, conduct the range test duplicating the slow motion. Increase speed only once you have duplicated the mental video exactly without having to make any adjustment.


Exercise 2:

If you find yourself adjusting your grip/sight picture because they are not lining up with your targets, you need to do another exercise. Place two 1/2 sheet of 8x11 copy paper targets with a center dot on your living room wall and with a cleared pistol, stand and face the targets. Draw and assume the shooting position using a two-handed isosceles grip with your elbows slightly bent. If the sights are off from the center dot, HOLD YOUR grip/hands/wrists and only make vertical adjustment at the shoulder and horizontal adjustment at the waist (if you are shooting a Glock and it is pointing high, you will need to "torque" your grip for the sights to line up). Please no comments about Glock grip angle - that's for another thread - Peace.

To help with this, imagine you have a body cast that's holding your head/shoulders/arms and wrists steady and have movable joints only at the shoulders and waist. With your neck locked at the base of the shoulders by the body cast, when you move your eyes towards the other 1/2 sheet target, your upper body should move as a unit like a tank turret moving to track a target. This exercise will allow you to draw and hold your pistol at the same position and track with your eyes with your upper body matching the movement. So, wherever you are looking with your eyes, your pistol is pointing the same and you simply need to "press/depress" the trigger twice to perform a double tap.

Performing exercises 1 and 2 and practicing with 2-3 1/2 sheet copy paper targets on the cardboard target will help you perform faster/accurate double-taps at 7-15 yards. What I found is that once I became confident with these basics, front sight flash became a natural integral part of my "point and double-tap" and shot calling progressed to anticipating/expecting two holes on target. If you start seeing double-taps becoming less accurate and getting larger (they should be about 1" apart), you need to slow your speed down and practice until you attain mastery at 7-15 yards.

Remember, slow is fast.

Practice while absolutely maintaining accuracy of your double-taps on 1/2 sheet targets and speed will naturally increase.

Have you done the "natural point of aim" with your eyes closed? Ooops, that's for another thread.

 

[LiveLife]

This video illustrates the "locked head/shoulders" and moving as a unit.

Starting at 0:40 mark of the video, you can see K. C. Eusebio engaging multiple targets but his head moves as a unit with the shoulders/arms/hands/wrists locked while moving at the waist only - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM6N5dEvAWw&feature=relmfu

All the seasoned regional/national USPSA shooters do the same as their head "floats" steady and vertical/horizontal adjustments are made at the shoulders/waist even though they are running through the stage engaging targets at different heights and angles.

Todd Jarrett at IPSC WORLD SHOOT 2011 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVw84eg8IX8&feature=related

Max Michel at IPSC WORLD SHOOT 2011 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2snq651Omuo&feature=related

Jerry Miculek at IPSC WORLD SHOOT 2011 shooting a revolver! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LrUjPMx8PQ

Eric Grauffel at IPSC WORLD SHOOT 2011- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWe1a_PQ_s4

 

[CPshooter]

For me, it was a simple matter of learning to trust my grip on the gun and ignoring the fact that the gun was about to recoil. I learned to keep my eye on the front sight no matter what until the gun fires off the round.

Good sights help. For example, I can't shoot with factory Glock sights because they are super distracting with the large white outline on the rear. Give me a plain black rear and a front sight that stands out and I can hit the center of a target all day long. Sights really do make a difference when learning to shoot.

 

[DefiantDad]

Wow great stuff! Thanks everyone!