Can a full auto be gifted down to you from a relative when they pass away?

[Eric Draven]

Could an Old F/A like the one the OP described be sold to an licensed FFL07 SOT to be used for Research and Development if it doesn't have any paperwork? I am just wondering if that might be another option for him, in the case that the older weapon is paperless.
I have seen companies like Ordinance that have all kinds of F/As like SAWs, original AK47s from the 1950s, M60s from Vietnam era and more. I'm wondering if it possible somehow to sell it to someone who is licensed to own and build these types of firearms.

 

[OcelotZ3]

Short answer is yes, an NFA item transfers without charge as part of settling an estate. No signoff needed either.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no signoff needed".

He will have to have his fingerprints taken, apply for the transfer, go through the full background check, etc. Instead of $200 it's free (or nearly free, plus fingerprinting costs). The local sheriff will often have to be notified, and any special state laws/transfer forms will have to be done.

I've done this for a registered SBR my father had so I'm familiar with it.

 

[Patriot1/3]

Whew,big man calling me a fool. Then so be it.
The FOOL would be keeping that weapon in the house...lol.
Don't commit crimes and your house wouldn't be raided. Or move from section 8 housing.
Rambo is a myth (In your mind he's real like Santa).
Sure,these guys can get to know me and I will make a diligent effort on my part.
Your stereotyping is quite in-mature.
Training is a must with any weapon.
But it's obvious you have been trained on ALL weaponry.
Have a wonderful day Sam.

 

[Vector]

Your honor - I move to strike this from the record - speculation!

That's a pretty huge "if" right there. As much as the antis cry and whine about FA weapons being used in crime, their actual nefarious usages are very few and very far between. The last one I remember is that California bank robbery that turned into a huge shootout back in the early 90's (I think). Both of them wound up dead, so there was no court case to see how the charges would have lined up.

The problem with the hypothetical is the relative inaccessibility of FA weapons. Those folks who have an unregistered one are quiet about it, and those with legal ones have so much money tied up in them that they guard them very carefully. I'm not saying they don't get stolen, but it is more on along the lines of a stolen Maybach vs. a stolen Ford - there just ain't many of them out there to steal.

Well you are obviously not from S Florida or a very "urban" area.
That is not to say we have full auto shootouts as common place, but there are some easy to convert cheap semi-autos that wind up in the gang-bangers hands. My point being that you rarely read about weapons charges against these criminals who commit crimes with them, yet there are incredibly strict laws that could put a law abiding citizen away for the mere possession of one even if it were not used in a crime. That seems not only crazy to me, but another attempt to infringe upon law abiding citizens to own firearms.

 

[Sam1911]

Whew,big man calling me a fool. Then so be it.

I didn't call you a fool. I said you don't want to appear foolish by endorsing illegal activities, especially poorly thought-out ones that are unnecessary to protecting you or your family but would land you in jail.

The FOOL would be keeping that weapon in the house...lol.

I thought you'd been suggesting that it was for protecting your family, presumably in some home-defense role? Where would you be going to retrieve your home-defense gun that you have to keep off-site? And how will you deal with the investigation of your defensive shooting, once you get back home and take care of business? The police will be wanting to see, and take into evidence, the weapon(s) used. That's a pretty unavoidable trouble spot when your defensive gun is an unregistered Title II item.

Don't commit crimes and your house wouldn't be raided. Or move from section 8 housing.

Crimes...like possession of contraband illegal weapons?

Rambo is a myth (In your mind he's real like Santa).

Actually, Rambo is a fictional character. Could be that he has risen to the level of a modern-day mythical element at this point. Either way, he does rear his long-haired, sweat-banded head on these very boards from time to time.

Sure,these guys can get to know me and I will make a diligent effort on my part.

Who? What?

Your stereotyping is quite in-mature.

Who? What?

Training is a must with any weapon.

Yes! And it is difficult to achieve when your weapon of choice is illegal and cannot be taken to the range, brought to a training class, practiced with -- outside of the very surreptitious, brief, and haunted moments you might be able to steal away, at GRAVE risk, in a remote quarry or somewhere where you can hope no one sees you.

But it's obvious you have been trained on ALL weaponry.

That would be cool, but no. I do have time on sub-guns, though. And I stand by the statement that a trained individual can do 9?% as good a job of defending yourself and your home against all common threats with a shotgun or service handgun as you could with a (WWII or Korean War era, no less) submachine gun.

And that, with the happy thought that you wouldn't be sent to federal prison when the police discover that you own it.

Have a wonderful day Sam.

Certainly, and you do so too.

 

[Maj Dad]

M1 Carbine?

Don't recall reading any details about the OP's actual gun, but when I was in college in the early 60's you used to be able to buy GI parts kits in a little bag to convert M1 carbines to M2. Some guys I knew converted them and used to go blasting in the woods, totally oblivious of the ATF (ca. 1964). If it's a carbine with an M1 marked receiver, and not with e-vill M2 markings, it would be simple thing to remove the M2 parts & toss them. I used to have a bunch of them before 1986 with the notion that I might register one of my carbines. After '86, I tossed them to avoid any possible unpleasantness; should have sold them, but discretion is the best route with the feds. Too bad.

 

[Bubbles]

I'm not sure what you mean by "no signoff needed".

I think he meant "no CLEO signoff needed" since there are CLEO's out there who won't sign Form 1's or Form 4's for anyone.

Could an Old F/A like the one the OP described be sold to an licensed FFL07 SOT to be used for Research and Development if it doesn't have any paperwork?

Nope. The most we can do is strip the parts, destroy the receiver per ATF regs, and sell the parts. Sadly it happens all too often.

 

[OcelotZ3]

Interesting, because my local sheriff *did* have to okay the transfer from my father's estate... The original poster is incorrect.

See the ATF Form 4: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

Section 17 is the part for law enforcement certification.

"e. Law Enforcement Certification. Item 17 must be completed for an
individual transferee, unless the transferee is licensed as a manufacturer,
importer, or dealer under the GCA and is a special (occupational) taxpayer
under the NFA at the time of the submission of the application for transfer."

 

[Sam1911]

See the ATF Form 4: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

But a transfer as part of an estate should be done on a Form 5 (tax exempt transfer), rather than a Form 4.

 

[Sam1911]

Holy cow. How did I miss this?

Here's an ATF open letter from 1999 that explains the process -- exactly -- including how the executor is to handle the weapon pending transfer, what form to use, what to do with UN-registered weapons, and so on.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/09/090599-openletter-nfa-estate-transfers.html

Can't be more clear than this!

Made into a sticky thread here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=570018

 

[glassmountains]

Interesting new bill introduced to alleviate some of the above. Contact your congressman and support this bill.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=198

 

[azbvm]

Wow dealing with this same issue. Thanks for the info!

 

[7thCavScout]

Side Note: I never ceased to be amazed at the amount of knowledge on this forum. Proof positive once again why THR is my go-to firearms forum.

 

[OcelotZ3]

But a transfer as part of an estate should be done on a Form 5 (tax exempt transfer), rather than a Form 4.

Yes, my bad, however the same section exists on Form 5. It's section 17, Law Enforcement Certification.

So my original point is still valid, local law enforcement has to certify the transfer.

 

[mopar92]

Interesting subject. I have been into a lot of veteran homes over the years. I went into one guys house that had 2 Sten's! One other occasion was a full auto light Japanese MG... A friend of the family brought back an MG42 sans barrel.... theres a lot of gray area MG's out there from WWI and WWII era. I had no idea 25 years ago they were that illegal etc.... I just wasnt into NFA guns then. I'd have popped my eyes out had I known then... all those old guys I knew with NFA stuff are probably gone, if I could even find them to begin with. I was young... interesting read...

 

[Sam1911]

theres a lot of gray area MG's out there from WWI and WWII era.

Unfortunatly, there are no gray areas. Just legal or illegal.

With more and more Greatest Generation types passing away, this will be a frustrating reality for a surprising number of families/heirs.

 

[mopar92]

Batfe knocked on your door yet?

 

[mopar92]

Gray area meaning , what if the vet got it here with his superiors knowing? That's why I said gray area... At the time those guys brought toys home, it might not have been illegal.. Seeing that their supervisor gave the ok...

 

[Sam1911]

Seeing that their supervisor gave the ok...

Yes, but his supervisor has nothing to do with the BATFE now, or with the NFA back then. If he didn't register it during the proper time to do so, it IS, COMPLETELY, illegal.

 

[Jim K]

I think there is no other subject that brings out so many ignorant, stupid, and argumentative people. The law is the law, and BATFE will enforce the law because they are sworn to do so. No, innocent widows who find their late husband's war souvenir SMG will not be put in jail, but wise guys who try to play games with the law and sound off to the feds just might find themselves in big trouble.

If you don't like the law, work to try to get it changed. Until that happens, obey it or go to prison. And you can scream all about your rights as they haul you away; it won't make the handcuffs hurt any less or keep Big Bubba off you in your cell.

Jim

 

[Sport45]

Does anyone know if another amnesty period is being considered? It might be appropriate with the passing of so many WWII vets these days. It's arguable that they were not aware of the legal requirements in '68. After all, they didn't have an internet or anything like that. My folks had a TV at the time, but only got one channel and were not on a paper route.

Wouldn't affect me anyway since the only firearm he came home with was a T99 Arisaka. It will be in the family for at least one more generation, I know.

 

[hirundo82]

The ATF has the authority to declare an amnesty, but they haven't done so since (IIRC) 1968.

There is a bill (HR 420) that was recently introduced in Congress to declare a 90-day amnesty for machineguns brought back by armed forces members returning from overseas prior to 10/31/1968.

 

[Monkey_King]

The law is the law, but I don't feel that it is stupid to question whether or not to follow the law blindly. I don't have a hand me down mg, but I do appreciate the dilemma that those like the OP find themselves in. I personally find laws such as this unconstitutional as others have stated and therefore void. Now this won't keep you out of jail if you're caught, but it doesn't make you wrong or stupid to bury the thing and hope for future amnesty. It will make you a criminal, but so were Rosa Parks, MLK, & all signers of our Declaration of Independence. Some thinks its a ridiculous risk to take and others think it sheepish not to take the risk. Its a difference of ideology and because they don't agree doesn't make them

ignorant, stupid, and argumentative

.

 

[newfalguy101]

If'n these NFA laws are so blatantly unconstitutional why don't we get on the NRA or another RTKBA org to fight the laws?

1) MONEY, it takes lots and lots of it to fight a legal challenge of this magnitude
2) Politics, at this point in time, it would be political suicide for any "orginization" to take on the NFA laws
3) Did I mention money??

 

[mustang_steve]

The only legal answer here if you wanted to ever use it is to takes everything off the receiver (discard of the reciever, destroyal by cutting it in half is the legal best approach), then pay some CNC-equipped firearms maker some good cash to make a one-off semi-auto only receiver for it, purchase that, then add the "parts kit" you now have to it.

That would be a new firearm as the receiver IS the firearm. You;d also no longer have a full-auto firearm, but that's the end goal of these draconian laws.