Can I cheat? Red dots, lasers, other aids make it easier?

[GRIZ22]

My main use for a laser is to get better at double action revolvers. If I can work the trigger without jumping the dot all over the place, then I'm getting somewhere. Sometimes I'll actually use it at the range, but it's pretty useless outdoors on a bright day.

This is the best use for lasers IMO. They're pretty much useless on a carry gun on a bright day as was pointed out. I found people using lasers spend more time looking for the dot than their target.

There are some limited applications for the tactical use of lasers on firearms. Very limited IMO.

 

[labnoti]

Anyone who doesn't think a 5-10% improvement at high levels of competition is huge does not understand. Something that makes a very fast shooter who is already optimized with one set of gear 5-10% faster/better is gigantic. Absolutely gigantic.

I realize it might not be clear what % means in their assessment. I don't think the red dot improved times or hits by 5 to 10%. That would be gigantic indeed. Instead, I think it was an assessment of the overall points/scores for a stage. That may still be very big indeed, but the test and the article were written with respect to the use of these aids for carry, not for competition. The conclusion they made was that 5% in competition equals nothing on the street, especially in consideration of the loss of performance that less experienced shooters showed with the red dots.

 

[ATLDave]

Scores in USPSA are points (hits) divided by time. So, yeah, 5-10% is gigantic.

It is common for the national championship (within an equipment division) to be decided by much less than a single percent. 5-10% is HUGE.

Moreover, the better you are, the harder any incremental improvement is to make. There's no low-hanging fruit left. So something that improves a shooter who is amazingly competent with iron sights by 5-10% might be expected to improve someone less skilled by larger margins.

You are not thinking about this correctly.

 

[Nuclear]

If red dots didn't make a difference in handgun shooting, there wouldn't be separate divisions for them in every competition that allows them.

 

[Old Dog]

My employer doesn't issue guns with red dot sights. A neighboring department does authorize its officers to use them if they so choose, and the consensus from those chose them, and stuck with them, is that their qual scores significantly improved from before they began using red dots.

There is a learning curve with the DeltaPoints, RMRs, Vortex and Romeo pistol red dots -- some folks struggle for a while -- but those who learn to use and trust the red dots, get it.

It's not cheating -- you still have to put in the work, practice, practice, practice. Nothing about pistol competency comes easy, or for free ...

 

[thomas15]

There is a learning curve with the DeltaPoints, RMRs, Vortex and Romeo pistol red dots -- some folks struggle for a while -- but those who learn to use and trust the red dots, get it.

This is of course true, I totally agree.

I personally find it amusing when I'm in a public setting such as a match and someone approaches me at a safe table to inquire about my open revolver. They want to know what model the revo is, the capacity, what moons I use and regarding the red dot they almost always ask me if I have a co-witness ability. I tell them that the amount of effort needed to co-witness irons with a dot is in my opinion no where near the expected payoff. I rather put that time, resources and effort into core marksmanship skills and be a better all around shooter. Not everyone accepts my opinion on that subject.

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As a general rule with respect to the OP question overall, it is practice that helps the most not add on stuff. Even with a quality red dot that is properly mounted and correctly sighted in, the individual must practice their index on a regular basis to keep up the skills of finding the dot quickly. If you do practice your index then if the sight were to fail at that critical moment you will very likely be fairly close to being on target anyway, unless of course you are in a bad position. And if that is the case dot or irons will cause you issues anyway.

 

[thomas15]

In my current rotation I have four (4) firearms that use dot sights. My open revo uses a C-MORE RTS2, my open rimfire pistol uses a C-MORE slide ride, open rimfire rifle uses C-MORE railway and Carry Optics uses a Burris FF3. With the exception of the RTS2, I can get a year of heavy use on a single battery. The RTS2 needs a new battery about once every 2 months but I use that gun a lot and dry fire with it 4 or 5 times a week.

With the RTS2 before the battery goes out, the dot blinks. I have shot a stage or two with it blinking with no real negatives. Other than that I have 3 years of dot sight bliss and no actual field failures.

On the other hand, I have had two instances where I have lost a fiber optic front sight insert in the middle of a match. I have learned to carry replacement fiber optic material but it is easier to replace a battery than a FA insert.

Contrary to popular belief, a dot sight isn't an item that you mount of your gun and then proceed to post Master Class scores in practiscore. It takes effort to get proficient with the dot and the skill needs to be maintained. What it does do is give shooters like yours truly that have less than perfect eyesight the ability to keep shooting at a high level with a little less stress.

 

[labnoti]

If red dots didn't make a difference in handgun shooting, there wouldn't be separate divisions for them in every competition that allows them.

Not necessarily. Competition rules can have an arbitrary element such as a Power Factor of "165" instead of "164," and they can sometimes attempt to "even" the field with respect to perceived advantages that are actually insignificant. Sometimes they do this purely for the sake of expense. A red dot open gun can easily cost double the amount of a production gun. That doesn't automatically make it better. If you spent on it, you would hope that it would be better, but just spending many thousands on a gun and optic doesn't automatically make it better. A non-red dot (and other mod) division can serve the purpose of capping expenses so the whole expensive pursuit of advantage is forgone irrespective of the outcome of that pursuit.

 

[labnoti]

You are not thinking about this correctly.

It's not my thinking. It's the conclusions of Karl Rehn and Masaad Ayoob. I only commented on their study and conclusions. It's very clear from the article they think the advantage of slide-mounted red dots is slight and possibly insignificant. That's their thinking. I am also not asserting that their thinking is somehow more authoritative, just stating what it is after they studied the matter.

 

[ATLDave]

If they think that a 5-10% change in hit factors in USPSA isn't huge, then they are not thinking about it correctly.

 

[robhof]

Lasers are too slow, IMO, for most shooting purposes.

Finding the laser dot is not as fast as finding the front sight. Or a red dot.

They are really great for unconventional fire positions and such.

Most home invasion type situations occur at night and a laser is supreme in low light, would love to have the infra red lasers we used in the desert, of course they only work with night vision equip...

 

[CDR_Glock]

I had a set of Crimson Trace grips for a while and while I found I could be very accurate with them, it was only when I took a long time to find the laser dot and I was very slow.

I had a Vortex Razor red dot for a while, but it was on a rifle and I went to a magnified optic instead.

So that's my experience with lasers and red dots.

I'm shooting handgun now at the range for fun and I want to cheat as much as possible. I'm shooting a heavy handgun with fairly light ammo. I just want to make everything as easy as possible. I'm not interested in changing the gun for a different type or model. I want to know about what accessories or modifications can make the fundamentals easier. It could be a better trigger, better grip, laser, red dot, scope, FO sights, porting or compensators...

I think some of the modifications out there are really just for chasing those last few hundredths of a second in competition and while they might "work" they don't really add anything for the user who isn't capable of operating at that level. I'm looking for things that make it easier for a novice.

Problem is, you can’t buy skill. Every one of these changes does not make you a better marksman.

I’d suggest buying 1000-2000 rounds of ammunition, get some instruction and work with what you have. Work on dry firing a lot, too.

Being a member at an outdoor range is better than an indoor, especially if you are allowed to shoot at mutiple targets, at different distances. If you’re a total novice, start shooting at 5 yards keeping it in the black. But push yourself with moving it further back. As you get more comfortable, if allowed, work using a shot timer. Score your targets against time, Progressively moving back.

Our club only allows 25 yard plates for handgun, so I had to get good fast or the steel targets weren’t going to be very good for me. I started buying Arntzen targets but then I got more and more IDPA cardboard targets, practicing shooting at multiple targets at different distances. Then I got a wild hair to get a Dueling tree, shooting plate and Texas star. These targets got heavier and heavier and set up at the range got to become more cumbersome. So, I set up all of my targets in my backyard range. My range is about 400 yards away from my house in a gully. My backstop is a mountain.




I have a rubber dummy, various ducks, bulls, poppers, a swinging IDPA stand, etc.


In my backyard, I tend to shoot Suppressed so I don’t freak out the neighbors. Right now with winter, I long for light after work, less wind, and more warmer temperatures to pick up daily, like I usually do.


My point, is that you need to shoot more, and push yourself every time you go out. Beat the person you were last time you were out.

 

[cal44mag]

Might be because a lot of "experts" think night sights, lasers, porting, and the like are useless, and those who choose to use them simply need more training... With that said, I don't personally like to depend on electronics like red dots and lasers even though I have lasers on multiple carry guns and red dots on some of my rifles.

Most experts are self proclaimed and are in the training industry themselves.

Not too surprising they are always recommending more training...

 

[robhof]

Most experts are self proclaimed and are in the training industry themselves.

Not too surprising they are always recommending more training...

Most Spec Ops units use Enhanced optics; Lasers, red dots, scopes etc... They train a lot and are very good(have to be to survive). So if they use them why shouldn't you, I use them, but also shoot without them as do the Spec Ops guys.

 

[Doublehelix]

Anyone who doesn't think a 5-10% improvement at high levels of competition is huge does not understand. Something that makes a very fast shooter who is already optimized with one set of gear 5-10% faster/better is gigantic. Absolutely gigantic.

I'll take 3%, thank you!!!

 

[Styx]

If they think that a 5-10% change in hit factors in USPSA isn't huge, then they are not thinking about it correctly.

I looked up the article labnoti referenced, but didn't get the read it in it's entirety yet. What I did see is that it was 10-20% and not 5-10...

Recalls Karl, “Roy Stedman, a Grandmaster shooter and R&D engineer, looked at the Steel Challenge years ago, which was noteworthy because shooters fire iron sight and red dot on similar courses and stages. There, longer range targets and basically one shot per target, he saw a 10-20% improvement with frame-mounted red dots. It shows for sure they do allow for improved shooting. That data does exist.”

 

[labnoti]

I looked up the article labnoti referenced, but didn't get the read it in it's entirety yet. What I did see is that it was 15-20% and not 5-10...

That's true for frame-mounted red dots at longer ranges in Steel Challenge. I mentioned that in my post #48: "There is no argument that frame-mounted red dots improve scores at longer ranges: “Roy Stedman, a Grandmaster shooter and R&D engineer, looked at the Steel Challenge years ago, which was noteworthy because shooters fire iron sight and red dot on similar courses and stages. There, longer range targets and basically one shot per target, he saw a 10-20% improvement with frame-mounted red dots. It shows for sure they do allow for improved shooting. That data does exist.”

The 5-10% is for slide-mounted "carry" red dots not in Steel Challenge, but in USPSA Production and Carry Optics National Championships.

 

[Styx]

That's true for frame-mounted red dots at longer ranges in Steel Challenge. I mentioned that in my post #48: "There is no argument that frame-mounted red dots improve scores at longer ranges: “Roy Stedman, a Grandmaster shooter and R&D engineer, looked at the Steel Challenge years ago, which was noteworthy because shooters fire iron sight and red dot on similar courses and stages. There, longer range targets and basically one shot per target, he saw a 10-20% improvement with frame-mounted red dots. It shows for sure they do allow for improved shooting. That data does exist.”

The 5-10% is for slide-mounted "carry" red dots not in Steel Challenge, but in USPSA Production and Carry Optics National Championships.

Ah okay.. Like I said, I haven't gotten to sit down and read the whole article. Skimmed it only.

https://gundigest.com/reviews/optics-reviews/carry-optics-red-dot-green-dot-iron

Karl Rehn does not personally carry optical-sighted guns. He does like the Veridian light/green laser combo for carry. He shot the entire 2016 Rangemaster event using green laser exclusively, and came in 7th out of over 200 serious shooters despite a time-consuming malfunction.

Very interesting... I've seen countless threads and debates over the years were instructors, gamers, and those who regurgitate what they heard which is that lasers are useless and too slow PERIOD! That, or their only real use is for training purposes...

 

[I6turbo]

Very interesting... I've seen countless threads and debates over the years were instructors, gamers, and those who regurgitate what they heard which is that lasers are useless and too slow PERIOD! That, or their only real use is for training purposes...

I have a bunch of handguns, scoped, open sighted, night sighted, reflex sighted, tube red dot, and green lasers. I've been shooting for more than 50 years and am certainly not the best, but certainly not the worst with a handgun. I cannot comprehend how one could fail to find the green laser to be a useful sighting tool in a variety of circumstances. Hands down, if I had to trust my life to a handgun in a HD or SD situation, I would absolutely want my sighting device to be one of my green lasers. The talk about not being able to find the dot, or not being able to see it in daylight, etc., just makes me wonder if they've ever actually tried one, or worse. The internet anti-laser operators and experts will never persuade me not to believe my own eyes or my own experiences.