Can I fix or improve this brass?

[labnoti]

This was new Starline brass. It's been fired two or three times. My main concern is the deformed mouth with the severe internal lip.

Here it is again before resizing:


Below, the same case has been resized with a neck bushing only.


Below, the same case has been resized with the neck bushing and expander ball.


Finally, I used a 45 degree chamfer tool to try to clean the mouth up.


I'm having to chamfer the mouth pretty aggressively to clean the rim off the mouth. It seems like I need some kind of a reamer.

 

[FROGO207]

If you want a more gentel taper l would get a VLD reamer and ream before you size the case. If needed you can do it again after you size the case.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Have you checked the length ?

It's almost as if the case is jamming into something to get that lip. The only thing I can think it would jam into would be the chamber neck.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, check the case length.

 

[243winxb]

Trim shorter at a very slow feed rate so a burr doesnt form inside. Or...

The mouth wall thickness can get thicker when wet tumbling brass. Brass bangs into each other. Steel pins have been said to cause it also.
The bushing moves lip inside.

Another may require sizing the neck down in 2 steps, with 2 bushing.

See photo here. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/case-mouth-doughnut.3983036/page-2

 

[Walkalong]

Finally, I used a 45 degree chamfer tool to try to clean the mouth up.

I do that for all rifle brass as a matter of course (Inside and out) for revolver brass and rifle brass. All you need to do is knock off the 90 degree edge, and (IMHO) yours is over done, but it's likely it won't hurt a thing, and consistency is probably more important than how much. I do inside and outside, so if it is over done you can end up with a sharp case mouth, and even shorten the case if one gets carried away. Just knock off any leftover material from trimming plus the 90 degree edge.

 

[Walkalong]

If you want a more gentel taper l would get a VLD reamer and ream before you size the case. If needed you can do it again after you size the case.

Wilson deburr chamfer tool, RCBS VLD tool.

 

[Ireload2]

Run an expander ball into the case necks. This will force the metal out and form a ridge on the outside of the case mouth. Then deburr the outside and inside and most of the ridge will be gone.

 

[lightman]

I would check the length, trim as needed and debur with a VLD chamfer tool. I've seen burrs that looked like that on cases that were trimmed with a dull trimmer when crowded to aggressively.

 

[edwardware]

Another honorable mention for a VLD inside chamfer tool. I don't use the 45° inside at all any more, and would be delighted to find a VLD-angle outside chamfer tool.

Also, once you turn the lip out with an expander, you could cut it off with a neck turning tool.

 

[Walkalong]

I have seen fresh factory brass that looks like that, after trimming/chamfering/deburring it will be gone.

 

[labnoti]

Case length: This is 6.5 Grendel and the cases are 1.500" +/- a thou. Alexander Arms originated the case design and specified max/min of 1.526" and 1.520" for SAAMI. They later stated this was incorrect. I believe Hornady lists max/min of 1.516" and 1.506" -- if anything, my cases should be short, but I have never trimmed 99% of them. I've only trimmed three or four out of several hundred because they were a few thou longer than the rest. Therefore I doubt they are so long that they're jamming into the chamber end or a die end.

VLD chamfer tool: I've seen those and I agree it seems like a viable fix but not also preventative.

Resizing in two steps: You've got me there. The CZ chamber seems loose because if I recall correctly, Redding suggests sizing down only five thou per bushing and when I measured it, I would need three bushings, and the one I have now wouldn't be useful. The cost of three more neck bushings and all that resizing isn't very palatable.

Expander ball: I used my Redding expander and result is Photo #4. It did not turn the lip out. To get it to turn the lip out, I would probably have to smash the neck down with a much smaller bushing before pulling the ball back through. I'm afraid that would require annealing or cracking brass. This fix would cost more in tools and labor than cutting with the VLD tool, and similarly, it wouldn't prevent recurrence.

Tumbling: They have been wet tumbled. Based on the linked thread, it sounds like wet tumbling can result in the mouth donut.

I have 300 more new cases. I'm going to be watching out at which step the "smash-mouth" starts to appear. My bet is it's the tumbling. I've been a little zealous for super clean brass and my tumbler doesn't have a timer. I think I need to control that better.

 

[Varminterror]

RCBS Tri-way cutters won’t roll a bead like that.

Inside neck reaming would clean it up perfectly too.

 

[243winxb]

Resizing in two steps:

If bushing sizing fired brass down more then .008" at one time. (Redding website)

My bushing is very close to needing 2 sizings. Never checked runout?

 

[NJWoT]

https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-777780...ase+prep+tool&qid=1564922076&s=gateway&sr=8-2

This will fix your brass in no time. Has a primer pocket cleaner as well if that matters to you.

 

[FROGO207]

Seriously doubt this is due to tumbling. If it was then the head/extracter groove area would show some signs of deformation as well IMO. I doubt you run your tumbler for a week for each load either. It will be interesting to see what the cause is.

 

[Demi-human]

Seriously doubt this is due to tumbling.

But it is.
My tumbler does this, too. My tumbler may be a bit more aggressive than others, but it is a common complaint with rifle precision handloaders.
As I do every single step, every single time to rifle brass, this causes me no concern.

If it was then the head/extractor groove area would show some signs of deformation as well IMO

Mine do. But the relationship between the impact is different. The mouth is softer and bounces with sideways impact, so only the straight on impacts displace metal.

However, on some more expensive pistol brass and new Bushmaster cases (straight cases don't really need trimming and I don't want them peened continuously shorter), I was concerned with the peened lip giving different bullet release pressure. As well as the burr cutting through the bullet plating.
Ultimately, I returned to using a smooth tumbling container and reducing the rotation speed, keeping them from falling inside the drum but moving briskly enough to not roll. I have labeled this one for pistol brass.

It did not turn the lip out.

And it won't. That area has been hardened more than the rest. The neck springs and the ridge remains.

it sounds like wet tumbling can result in the mouth donut.

Not only on the inside. The outside gets a tumbling burr also, which can alter how the case sits in the chamber. It's remnants can be seen outside the mouth edge on all four photos as it pushes the mouth away from the bushing during sizing.

The solution is easy.

No. We are not giving up our tumblers.

You've already been doing it. But I like a VLD shaped deburring tool.
Well, that, and a timer.

 

[Walkalong]

I never tumbled 6 PPC brass, I just cleaned it with Never Dull, then wiped that off with a clean cloth. But we didn't go through a lot of cases.

 

[FROGO207]

Well l use a Thumlers rotary tumbler and when tumbling for a couple hours with SS pins have never seen this happen. You might want to shorten your tumbling time IMHO.

 

[Demi-human]

Done, and done.
Rifle brass is done in thirty minutes on high.
Pistol in fourth five minutes. On low in a separate, baffle-less container.

All shiny bits of gold. All perfect.

That, and it just is not that big of a concern.
If it gets obtrusive enough the sizer and expander will do their titled jobs...

I think my tumbler can eat a Thumblers. And still be hungry for a shaker bowl...

And a thousand Fourth Five Auto.


Saw peening.
Adjusted process.
Carried on.

 

[Walkalong]

I routinely tumble brass all night or all day (Still haven't hooked it up to a timer) and haven't seen that, but then revolver brass has been chamfered/deburred prior to tumbling, as well as rifle brass, with rifle brass being done lightly every time.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Here's what I've seem this before. I know this is atypical and may not relate to the question. Here it goes. Back in the day the projects were 9x57 Mauser and 338-06. The 338.06 it turns out was 338-06 OKH which had a shorter case. From the company that did the work it was just neck down 30-06. Case was mouth was folded in. Ditto, the 9x57 Mauser. Factory 8mm brass was too long. That rifle was marked 9x57 but had been rebored and reproofed from 8x57. In both instances that brass was too long. Trimmed and the problem went away.

 

[243winxb]

The peening that happens when washing brass does seem to be a problem. More a problem if loading for a tight neck chamber, where the neck has only .003" clearance. This is .0015" on each side.

The citrus washing has to be done at some point in the reloading process.

There is a carbon build up in the area where case head separations start. When using a pick to check inside, this carbon gave me a false reading.

My cleaning method is using fine steel wool to remove soot/carbon from the neck/shoulder area. Doing 50 brass at a time. Then wipe with a rag outside & a Qtip inside the necks. This method let my 243 brass form a ring of carbon after 21 firing.

I put citrus wash in a tupper wear qt container. Shake a few minutes. Let sit for 4 hrs or longer. Shake for 5 minutes. Drain and rinse. Dry on oil fired heater at about 120f for a day. No steel pins are used.

There is still light peening of the case mouth with my washing method, so not going to over do the washing.

Peening may be worse with annealed, soft necks?

 

[Demi-human]

Peening may be worse with annealed, soft necks?

This may be. I do that everytime, too.

I don't feel like it's a big enough deal for pistol cases. I may some day.

Some put small sections of tubing on the neck to avoid the peening.
I'm not that good yet...

 

[horsey300]

I don't tumble and have NEVER seen this issue........ so I'll point my finger that way too.