Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

[BHPshooter]

I'm quite embarassed to say this, but I really don't know what happened at either place.

So, can anyone tell me what happened?

Thanks,
Wes

 

[Wanderer]

Feds got carried away, innocent people died.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Department of Justice Ruby Ridge Report

Six years later, Waco's horror is still hazy

 

[oldfart]

Both subjects have several books written about them. Trying to condense them into a single post is more than I can do. Go to google and do a search on them. Make sure your printer has a full paper tray.

 

[greyhound]

Actually, to understand a lot of the historical topics related to the "gun culture" discussed here, I'd recommend "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross (who sometimes posts here). Its available a bunch of places, including Amazon.com, and though a novel, manages to cover pretty much every incident in the recent past.

Time to feed the hogs!

 

[bountyhunter]

At least in the aftermath of Ruby Ridge, the State issued warrants for (and wanted to put on trial) the jack-boot fed with the sniper rifle who murdered an unarmed woman hiding behind a door with a baby in her arms. Of course, there was no trial (the Feds wouldn't allow that) but, it was an important statement made.

Both incidents were shameful dates in history, and both show how inept the Feds are in handling such matters.

 

[bountyhunter]

Department of Justice Ruby Ridge Report

You forgot to add the legal disclaimer:

"Any resemblance to the truth is purley coincidental."

 

[Baba Louie]

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id263/pg1/

http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/rubyridge/

A place to start.

Adios

 

[telewinz]

I can still remember when these two incidents came to the public's attention via the news media. The PUBLIC put a great deal of pressure on the Feds for a quick resolution and more than a few were upset at the Feds for using "kids gloves". The protests against the Feds came weeks later led mainly by the extreme right. Innocents were killed and so were the guilty Weaver and Waco, the majority of the guilt should not lie with the Feds. But it's the World we live in, misfits and failures who rely on the "Turner Diaries" to explain and excuse their past mistakes and poor judgement. Its not my fault I'm a VICTIM!

 

[Waitone]

Stick around long enuf and someone will talk about "militarization of the executive branch." IMNSHO both incidents to which you refer are examples of the concept. Both got out of hand for a variety of reasons but two reasons show up in both. In both cases LE was just itching to show its stuff to the opposition. The other factor is in both cases LE at the federal level wanted a good show in the media to help convince congress to increase their respective funding.

Events got out of hand, butts were covered, evidence disappeared, those responsible were promoted, and now every time a problem occurs LE at the state and federal level what to know what can be done to avoid another Waco // Ruby Ridge.

Lots of books were written and reports made from all perspectives. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[mete]

Abuse of power. In Ruby Ridge it involved murder by the FBI HRT - not just my opinion but that of many police officers. Waco one officer shot himself and others were shot by friendly fire . Isn't it strange that in times when evidence is saved for years , all evidence in the Waco case was destroyed.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

"Any resemblance to the truth is purley coincidental."

Your right. The report did get one thing correct. The entire Ruby Ridge episode began with a government/court SNAFU.

When Weaver was arraigned on the weapons charges in January 1991, he was told that his trial would commence on February 19, 1991. Two weeks later, the court clerk notified the parties that the trial date had been changed to February 20, 1991. Shortly thereafter, the U.S. Probation Office sent Weaver a letter which incorrectly referenced his trial date as March 20, 1991. After Weaver failed to appear for trial on February 20, the court issued a bench warrant for his arrest. Three weeks later, on March 14, a federal grand jury indicted Weaver for his failure to appear for trial. We found that: the government, especially the USAO, was unnecessarily rigid in its approach to the issues created by the erroneous letter; that the USAO improvidently sought an indictment before March 20, 1991;

 

[Navy joe]

Innocents were killed and so were the guilty Weaver and Waco, the majority of the guilt should not lie with the Feds. But it's the World we live in, misfits and failures who rely on the "Turner Diaries" to explain and excuse their past mistakes and poor judgement. Its not my fault I'm a VICTIM!

Umm, Weaver wasn't killed. You want to explain what Weaver was guilty of? Failing to appear for a bench warrant that the date was changed on him without informing him; stemming from an original problem of making a shotgun 1/2" too short. He was talked into working on the shotgun by an undercover fed after repeatedly telling the fed that the law said 18". He finally trusted his new buddy and made the cuts. For these two things he paid with his wife's and son's lives. They would all be dead if not for the upstanding actions of local law enforcement. I guess his guilt is proven by the fact that he won a very large lawsuit, small consolation for getting your family murdered.

Waco? Never did see the pile of illegal machine guns those cultists had. Their biggest crime was that they really didn't give much respect to the idea of the U.S. government. All B.S. weapons charges and allegations of child abuse have been proven to be just that, BS!

So, I don't live anywhere close to either of these folks ideologically, would probably think them loony if I lived next door to them, but nothing was done to warrant mass death sentences.

Let's name some common people present for both events:
Lon Horiuchi
Janet Reno

 

[telewinz]

You amaze me, you cite the felonies committed Weaver committed then you downplay his actions. "He was talked into it by a friend" man I haven't used that as an excuse since I was eight. He didn't accidently cut down that shotgun by 1/2 an inch TOO MUCH , he knowingly did it for profit. You prove my point, Weaver is an innocent VICTIM, our 20th century Little Red Robin Hood being pursued by the "big bad wolf". In both cases more than one felony was committed (not that it mattered how many) and the right wing extremists were justly required to account for their actions by lawful authority. The accused felons used poor judgement once too often and knowingly decided to put their friends/family at risk for their own selfish reasons. These people are your heroes? Bear in mind that the "Turner Diaries" is fiction written by a neo-nazi who didn't even have the guts to use his real name as the author. It's not a history nor a valid perdiction of the future (yes, I've read the book) its a poorly written fantasy intended for poorly educated, simple-minded racists.

 

[griz]

"Innocents were killed and so were the guilty Weaver and Waco"

The question still remains, which dead Weaver was guilty? Your statement is an excuse for the FBI's behavior at Ruby Ridge. To me it was inexcusable. Yes Randy Weaver should be responsible for his actions. But his family should not be shot to punish him.

 

[sensop]

Thefumegator,

Go to TFL and do a search. It's pretty much all there.

 

[mattd]

Waco: The rufles of engagement is anti fed show, And the one on pbs is more pro fed. You can watch the whole show from pbs here http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/view/

and all the other pbs shows http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/twenty/watch/

 

[brownie0486]

Lets not forget that it's believed a fed marshal named Deagan from Ma. was shot and killed by one at the Weaver compound before the feds ever opened up with their artillery.

How soon everyone apparently forgets to mention that here. Wondering why.

Brownie

 

[Mark Tyson]

Both incidents are examples of of overzealous law enforcement. They are standing lessons in why you never want to escalate the use of force beyond what is required.

The shotgun-barrel issue with Weaver amounts to entrapment. Anytime the police actively persuade you to commit an illegal act you would not have otherwise have done, it satisfies entrapment. Randy Weaver may be an ignorant racist, but he did not deserve what happened to him. Anyway, the whole SBS provision of NFA 34 is asinine if you ask me; not something worth arresting someone over. And don't tell me "But it's the law ...", cops have discretion for a reason.

I don't see how that shooting was ruled justified. The sniper said he was aiming at someone else when he shot Vicky through the door.

Regarding Waco, that was a complete Charlie Foxtrot from beginning to bloody end. FBI Agents who were there claim that Davidians would hold up infants and children to cover themselves from sniper fire - I don't know if that's true. In the initial ATF raid, the ATF shot and killed one man in a tower outside the compound claiming he was aiming a rifle at them. Turns out he was unarmed. Then there's the whole controversy over who fired first, the feds or the Davidians. It's a case of he said, he said. Maybe we'll never know.

 

[Tamara]

brownie0486,

Lets not forget that it's believed a fed marshal named Deagan from Ma. was shot and killed by one at the Weaver compound before the feds ever opened up with their artillery.

How soon everyone apparently forgets to mention that here. Wondering why.

Why? Because it's not true. Degan was killed by Harris after Sammy Weaver and his dog had already been shot. Harris was cleared of murder charges.

A quick Google on "Degan, Harris, Murder" will provide you with plenty of info.

 

[brownie0486]

Tamara,

Appreciate the refresher, stand corrected.

Brownie

 

[seeker_two]

Ruby Ridge: Feds get Weaver to make SBS illegally. Send HRT to enforce warrant & give them permission to shoot first. HRT does & kills Weaver's wife. After standoff, Weaver surrenders & is tried. Weaver acquitted. HRT sniper who killed Weaver's wife charged by state, but Feds refuse to enforce. Major coverup by Feds continues.

Branch Davidians: ATF gets search warrant for compound. Instead of using local LEO's to help serve, they decide to use SWAT team while press covers. Davidians find out through press that ATF is coming & prepares. ATF begins raid (knowing that surprise is compromised.) Still don't know who shot first, but lots of shooting. ATF's nose bloodied & withdraws. Calls FBI to help surround compound. FBI & Davidians talk. FBI wants unconditional surrender. Koresh wants to talk w/ lawyer & reporters. FBI refuses. Koresh refuses to surrender. Says he'll burn place down first. FBI cuts power to compound--forcing Davidians to use lanterns in wooden compound. After 51 days, FBI decides to use tanks outfitted w/ tear gas to crash through walls. Also use tear gas grenades. Tanks knock lanterns over, setting compound on fire. Tear gas reacts to fire to make poisonous compound. Most Davidians die, few survivors arrested. Trial held in Waco. Davidians acquitted by jury, but Fed judge Walker Smith overturns jury verdict to give Davidian survivors prison time. Also supresses trial records & evidence presented. Feds seize all materials from compound from Texas Dept. of Public Safety (state police) and refuse to let anyone examine it. Major coverup by Feds continues.

Does this help?

 

[Wanderer]

He sawed the shotgun off after constant bugging and finally relented, but it was ONLY half an inch. I wouldn't go in with a swat team because half an inch of metal was missing from one weapon, not to mention how UNCONSTITUTIONAL the law he violated is...

 

[Richardson]

Regarding Weaver,

I understand that he cut down a longer barrel (nothing illegal there), and that the result was a barrel that was 1/2" shorter than allowed by law -- at least that's what is claimed.

I'd like to know if Weaver might have been measuring from the (receiver) end of the barrel, and thought it was legal, and the feds measured from the deepest part of the chamber (or some other "not so obvious" starting point) to "technically" get weaver on weapons charges. What Weaver did required no specialized knowledge, just some tools.

Either way it was entrapment. Either way it was only a 1/2", hardly a cause for alarm. Either way the seige was wrong.

Richardson

 

[TallPine]

In both cases more than one felony was committed

No felonies were committed, because Weaver was acquitted.

I think we still have a right to a jury trial in this country, as long as you can stay alive long enough to get there.