Can we be honest about what kind of accuracy you are getting from your AKs (esp WASR)

[Dr.Rob]

I

have put plenty of rounds through my GP-10 WASR AK-47-type rifle. I was basically minute-of-man accurate at 100 yards sitting on a rickety picnic table bench with a rickety 2 x 4 supporting the gun by the mag.

To quote Jamie Hyneman, "There's your problem."

The magazine makes a horrible rest. Shooting offhand doesn't tell you much about how the rifle shoots, nor the accuracy of the ammunition.

First off get your self a 5 round magazine. Sandbag your rifle and zero your sights (iron, red dot, whatever). The idea is to FIRST take the shooter out of the equation completely. You want a rock solid rest. Shoot several different brands of ammo, see which one your rifle 'likes.' (I really never understand those who expect match grade accuracy from the cheapest ammo available.)

After that, its really a question of practice. Shoot the same ammo all the time if possible. Those Appleseed rifle clinics are supposed to be the bee's knees. (Even if you've 'been there and done that, you MIGHT learn something new.) Shooting accurately isn't the same as shooting fast AND accurately, you'll learn over time to increase your speed.

AK's were never made for hunting rifle accuracy, but a 6 inch group at 100 yards should be possible. 223/5.56 mm and 5.45mm AK's get the benefit of a stiffer barrel and usually shoot better 2-3 inch 100 yard 5 shot groups. I am of course talking about SLOW controlled aimed fire for accuracy, not dumping a magazine as fast as you can. I can get 2-3 inch groups from my 5.56mm Mak-90 but I have to take my time.

You want to shoot prone? Get a 20 round magazine and do NOT rest the rifle on the magazine. Over tensioning your sling (if you use one) can also affect your accuracy since it mounts directly to the barrel. You can add a recoil pad to your rifle and a longer length stock (added weight = less recoil). A muzzle brake can help too.

Hope the info helps.

 

[lionking]

I can't claim to be a awesome shooter,but depending on what I am using I am decent enough I guess so this thread I did posting different ammo tests with 2 different AK style rifles I attribute more to the guns than me for the results.Would really like to get hold of a Saiga to pit it against those other 2 I used.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=387834

 

[MD_Willington]

milk jugs at 200 feet, always hit them... I haven't had time to try it at 100m, but I have found a private range in Idaho to do so.

 

[d2wing]

The Isrealis tried to make the AK into a somewhat accurate rifle called the Galil. From what I heard it helped, but still could not compete with an AR.
After owning several, I'd say hitting a man size target in the heart/lung area at one hundred yards is pretty optimistic. At 200 yards or more it is very
unlikely. From a bench on a good day 6 MOA is very good. They are intended for mass fire. I have one in the closet along with a12 ga pump. Useful yes,
accurate no.

 

[wally]

Personally I'll believe the 2 MOA AK when I see it. 4-8" at 100 yards is a realistic expectation for 10 shot groups off sandbags with optics or good, young eyes.

The "Acceptance Certificate" that came with my Saiga 7.62x39 said it did 86mm at 100 meters for four shot extreme spread. That's a bit over 3 MOA, but it opens up more if you shoot 10 shot groups. This is my best shooting AK, but my worst will put 10 shots into 8" pretty much every time.

IMHO anything less than a 10 shot group is statistically not valid, three shot groups lead to a lot of unreasonable claims, especially after "flyer's" have not been included.

I'm with MD Willington here, two liter bottles at 50 yards is is a very fun afternoon with the AK. I start them at about 25 yards and dance them down range until they fly over the backstop at about 75 yards. Hitting low right at the dirt under the bottle launches it spectacularly up in the air -- very visually appealing and its fun to try and launch it again as soon as it lands. Unfortunately can't do this at most normal rifle ranges, but when I go out to my friends ranch in Columbus we have a ball with it.

I'd say hitting a man size target in the heart/lung area at one hundred yards is pretty optimistic. At 200 yards or more it is very unlikely. From a bench on a good day 6 MOA is very good

Hmm... 6MOA is about 6" at 100 meters and should be effective at torso sized targets out to 250m if the fool is standing still
My AK groups are pretty much always opened up more vertically than horizontally.

--wally.

 

[lionking]

Wally I had such diifferent results with the ammo I tested that I am thinking of trying it again with ten shot groups.Higher priced ammo does seem to have a effect on accuracy.

 

[Coronach]

AK accuracy:

SAR-1: good for 3 MOA

Vepr: good for <2 MOA

The biggest impediment to practical accuracy in an AK is, IMO, the iron sight system.

Mike

 

[woodfiend]

I was able to hit a piece of printer paper standing unsupported at 100 yards with my WASR 10. Not too hard, and I could easily make body hits fairly rapidly with it at that range as well. Do you have one of those slant muzzle brakes? Because I found that it actually does help with muzzle rise.

 

[gotmine]

I'm satisfied with all of mine as far as accuracy...a couple shoot very tight by AK standards, but.....my skills sometimes vary from day to day. There's Russian, Bulgarian, Yugo, Hungarian, & Romanian in the lot with no variance in performance...They all do what they're designed to do well. If I needed to dot the I's from 100m out then I believe I'd have an AR platform.

 

[schadenfreude]

I had never shot a rifle prior to converting my saiga. We went out and I paced off 75 yards which was the limit of the spot we were in. I put nearly every round of a 30 round mag on a 12 inch target. Iron sights and standing. I think 26 rnds first go.

 

[TexasRifleman]

AKs can have problems that prevent them form seeing even 6MOA accuracy: loose parts, damaged crowns, and bad ammo can all take their toll.

My WASR-10 fits in this range here, 6-8 MOA regardless of the ammo I feed it.

This down from 10MOA after some work.

 

[jpwilly]

I really have no idea because I've never shot my AKM for groups! But I am courious to find out what it will do.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Instead of sights mine just says, "This side toward enemy"

Is that bad?

 

[grimjaw]

With a SAR1 and standard irons, at best I was able to get about 4-5 MOA out of it at 100 yards. That's from a bench and on a target large enough to make using the standard irons easier (i.e. a large round bullseye). With a magnified optic or red dot, I was able to do 4-5 MOA more consistently, but that's about it.

With the Arsenal Inc SAM5 and a red dot, it got a little better, but again we're not talking MOA at 100 yards.

jm

 

[Geneseo1911]

Instead of sights mine just says, "This side toward enemy"

Funniest thing I've read this week. That kind of stuff is what keeps me coming back. Well Done Sir.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

Great advice guys - I don't ever claim to be a REAL SHOOTER. I want to go to the next NE Ohio Appleseed and really learn to be a rifleman but I grew up in a liberal family in Boston, MA and while I have always loved militaria, I have only now had the freedom (age 24 now) to really work on my technical firearms skills.

I know my skills are poor. Most of what I describe is semi-rapid fire (1-1.5 seconds between shots). I do better with the AR when I take more time but it seems like the AK sights hold me back no matter how hard I wait and try.

Anyway, I will continue to watch this thread and take your suggestions into account.

If only I could really get a short mag, sandbag my WASR, and figure out what it was capable of then I would love to aspire to be as good as the gun itself. I in no way mean to blame the technology over my skills.

 

[jpwilly]

IMO the AK needs a good muzzle brake to perform well. The slant brakes most of them come with do very little. The AK-74 style brakes are very effective! Next the sights SUCK. Get a good red dot or holographic. Also a better trigger is needed IMO. With those three items and provided you have a stock that fits you well the AK can keep up with AR's in the speed department anyway.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

Personally I'll believe the 2 MOA AK when I see it. 4-8" at 100 yards is a realistic expectation for 10 shot groups off sandbags with optics or good, young eyes.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=409217

 

[armoredman]

Well, the WASR-10 we have is definately not an real long range rifle. Last time I had it out it was 5 inches at 50 yards, and not really on paper at 100. That was quite some time ago, should revisit since we had the sights redone. Just haven't had the time.
As for the accuracy of the round itself...





Only 50 yards, but not to shabby, seated, not benched, this rifle.

 

[stubbicatt]

I bought one of those Century Yugo Rifles which we took up to a friend's place and shot at a yellow gallon sized tide bottle at 300 yards and we riddled that thing. I reckon it is a bit larger than a human head. There were a few misses, but they were close.

Shot from kneeling position, which works for me as a great field position for this sort of thing.

-- My companion that day is a former Marine cannon cocker. Dude can shoot just about anything well.

 

[benEzra]

SAR-1, Wolf, 50 yards, 1x optic, messing around from a braced position but without a whole lot of care:

The third shot was just off the card, to the left. I want to get back to the range this weekend and shoot some 10-shot groups at playing cards; I think keeping all 10 on the card at 50 is doable.

At 20 yards, you should have no trouble keeping an entire magazine on a playing card, offhand.

Having said that, there is a learning curve. AK's balance differently than bolt-actions, the trigger is different, and the sights are MUCH different (more like pistol sights, unless you shoot lever-actions a lot). AK's are easy rifles to shoot badly.

Just as with a pistol, focus hard on the front sight, breathe in and let the breath halfway out, hold it, and squeeze the trigger slowly until the shot takes you by surprise (don't hold your breath too long; stop and take another breath if you need to). Hold the trigger back for a second before letting it reset. Don't rush the shots just because you don't have to cycle a bolt. Speed will come, but accuracy first. Take at least 5 seconds per shot, more if you need to; if you can't make yourself go slowly, load the chamber with one round at a time until you get the hang of it.

When shooting from the bench, if the rifle is wobbling, figure out a position in which you can hold it steady. If you don't have a good benchrest, shooting from prone or with your elbows braced against a bench works well.

Also, AK's don't typically benchrest as well as some rifles; the barrel/receiver vibration resulting from the heavy gas piston being blasted off the cantilevered gas block can make the rifle jump off a hard rest, resulting in much more scatter than you'd expect, and resting on the magazine is worst of all. I get best results from a bench shooting from a soft support placed as far back under the receiver as possible (i.e., just in front of the magazine), not under the handguard or barrel.

 

[Coronach]

AK's are easy rifles to shoot badly.

Amen!

As I said earlier, the best single upgrade you can make to an AK is to put some sort of red dot on it, or to upgrade the iron sights. Next up would be the trigger.

You can certainly get very good with the AK as-issued, but it's easier to get good with it if you have a red dot and a decent trigger.

Mike

 

[atlanticfire]

Don't have a waser, but my Vector milled slr-100 with junk wolf ammo is about 2 moa from a bench at 100. Through a scope I might add. Also the JLD breaks are good to but a little expensive.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

Interesting thoughts. I purchased the WASR as my first rifle ever and intended to "get good" with iron sights. I was sorely disappointed although I still do not want to sit around and blame my gear.

1. Iron sight upgrade done to Belorussian PK-AS side-mount red dot. It is hard to tell if it is properly zeroed at 100 yards - possibly due to an inconsistent rifle or my own incapability. I realize I need low-cap mags and some sandbags to do this right. I had already painted the irons and filed out the rear notch slightly.

2. What sort of trigger upgrade should I perform? I've heard some say that their CAI WASRs came with "Tapco"-marked trigger assemblies but mine does not say this. Still, I have no problems with "trigger slap" as I've heard it described.

3. I have the standard slant-style muzzle brake. Worth changing out? Any other ways to reduce the massive vibration/slamming of the piston that requires me to spend so much time between shots regaining a sight picture?

Tonight I took the rifle apart and did some minimal cleaning but mainly used a flashlight to look at the chamber, barrel/rifling, and crown to inspect for damage. While I am not expert, the rifling seemed consistent, the chrome looked smooth, and when I removed the brake the crown seemed fine all the way around. Could an amateur/novice to gunsmithing tell if something was amiss with these parts?

I also replaced the wire side-folder I recently added with the original wood stock - thought I had not shot it yet with the folder I figured the wood could only help me. I know the problem is more likely with the shooter than the rifle but I really would like to practice and be able to get something like 8 MOA consistently from a steady-sling or prone position using my stockpile of steel-case Wolf ammunition.

 

[MD_Willington]

RE: Galil, why would Israelis waste time and money on machining a modified Valmet when Uncle Sam was handing out AR's??

Makes more sense to go with the freebie now doesn't it.