Can we be honest about what kind of accuracy you are getting from your AKs (esp WASR)

[Coronach]

It does, but only if the capabilities are similar. While I profess no special knowledge of Israeli procurement practices, my feel is that they will accept the bargain when it is not a step down, but will stubbornly do their own thing if they think that the end product will better serve their purposes. You can see this in their armor development and their SAM missile systems, for example.

For instance, if the M16/M4 family is so cheap for them (and it is), why are they going their own way once again with the Tavor? Similarly, if the Galil was significantly better, I couldn't see them tossing all of them to take on the M16 series, no matter what the price was.

Mike

 

[Girodin]

After owning several, I'd say hitting a man size target in the heart/lung area at one hundred yards is pretty optimistic. At 200 yards or more it is very
unlikely.

Are you serious? I have a few and I can hit there on silhouettes and head shots at 100 yards off hand with ease. I dont think I am a particularly great shot or that the above is an impressive feat. The people who have shot with me do the same . if I couldn't hit the vitals of a man sized target at 100 yards I would either learn to shoot or toss the rifle incapable of it in the trash. really that is a pretty low standard for accuracy.

As for comparing AKs to ARs. It seems people often compare wars 10s to heavy barrel ARs sporting scopes. They are of course two different beasts. I contend that shooting from field positions inside 200 yds with similar optics (red dot) or open sights I shoot about the same with my saigas as with an AR or any of the other rifles I shoot. There are some differences in ergos etc but in terms of mechanical accuracy if i am not shooting of of rests and or a bench any differences dont seem to show up.

 

[Deer Hunter]

4 MOA with irons out of my Saiga .223.

About the same as my AR.

 

[wyocarp]

Well, I've never taken any of my aks to the range. I didn't know that was what they were for. I do take them out shooting gophers and rabbits (antelope this past year with open sights). If you are either of those two creatures, you are in trouble. I typically use aimpoints on them currently, but even with open sights, gophers weren't safe out to maybe 70 yards.

That's plenty accurate enough. At least they fire when I pull the trigger. I can't say that for the AR. The last time out, on top of other issues, I fired at least a dozen rounds out of the ak that the ar wouldn't fire.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

First of all,shooting offhand or sitting is not a good way to test the accuracy of a rifle, and prone probably isn't much better. Try resting the barrel of a gun on a cardboard box.

Now, if you want to improve your shooting skills, get a .22 rifle, so you
can practice a lot. You might even wish to get an air rifle so you can practice in your house, but be advised that they fire lead pellets, so you might not want to shoot them in the house. BB and airsoft guns don't fire lead, but might not be accurate enough.

If you don't get the air or .22 rifle, or get a semi-auto one, focus on making each shot count. WHen I first got a semi-auto, I had problems with this too, I would fire off a shot before I really got on target. If you concentrate, you can solve this.

At 20 yards, you should have no trouble keeping an entire magazine on a playing card, offhand.

I'm not sure that's true for a new shooter.

 

[benEzra]

At 20 yards, you should have no trouble keeping an entire magazine on a playing card, offhand.

I'm not sure that's true for a new shooter.

Quite true. I probably should have made it clear. The platform is capable of delivering that accuracy, if you work on your skills to be able to take advantage of it.

 

[Big Bill]

The simple answer to the question of this thread is that the AK was/is first and foremost a machine gun. And, that's why it's such a lousy semi-auto rifle. However, AR15 by design is first and foremost a semi-auto rifle then a machine gun. And, that's why the AR15 is a better battle rifle. It's more controllable and accurate out to 400 yards.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Think the real point of the thread is to TRY shooting your AK like a hunting rifle instead of a bullet hose and seeing how well you can make it shoot.

 

[anymanusa]

Iron sights my 74 does about a 'pieplate' of accuracy at 100 yds.

 

[outerlimit]

I've never owned a WASR, which is the chop shop version of the SAR-1. But I have owned an SAR-1 and the words 'accuracy' and 'SAR-1' do not belong in the same sentence. It had about the accuracy of a smooth-bore musket and made a Mini-14 look good.

 

[Deer Hunter]

The point of this thread?

AKs shoot better than their owners.

 

[Rangegod]

Two 5 shot groups off sand bag at 100 yards with 50 something year old eyes. Gun = 7.62X39 VEPR II, Ammo = Wolf FMJ

Target on left open (iron) sights. Right Kobra red dot (1 MOA dot, no magnification)

JAC

 

[FMJMIKE]

I can fairly regularly break clay pidgeons at 100 yards with open sights. My rifle is a Sar-1 with Wolf ammo. This is shooting with elbows rested on a table. Not super but good enough to discourage any "problems" of the two legged variety......

 

[MTMilitiaman]

If the AK is throwing you around that much and you are having that much trouble keeping the rifle on target and achieving consistent hits with it, then stance and fundamental marksmanship are your problems. I don't see how there is any way this can be argued.

The AK is not a varmint or target rifle by an stretch of the imagination. But it is accurate enough to reliably put rounds on a human torso sized target out to 200+ yards with any decently accurate Commie pulling the trigger.

With the PK-AS on my WASR, or the Kobra that is on it now, I can take a supported knee position and keep at least 20 out of 30 inside a 16x32 inch cardboard torso-head target at 200 yards firing all 30 rounds in under 45 seconds. That's out of practice--and I don't claim to be God's gift to the rifle either.

From a bench, both this family's WASRs consistently do 4 to 5 MOA at 100 yards with Wolf black box. This isn't much worse than the 3 to 4 MOA my uncle's MAK-90 manages.

Typical 3-round group with Wolf MC JHPs @ 100 yards, prone, slowfire, now that I have the Kobra sighted in:



Target that came with my WASR, back when it had wood furniture, standard irons, and the crappy Century trigger with horrendous trigger slap:


As with most things, I find that most people who can't hit anything with the AK can't really hit much with anything else either. Therefore, I am calling Indian, not arrow on this one.

 

[Deer Hunter]

4x POSP scope, fairly rapid pace, 100 yards with Brown Bear .223 from my Saiga.

As honest as it gets.

 

[lionking]

OK did another test today,did better than last time,may be that now that I have fired the rifle more recent I am coming more acustom to it.Last time the results were more spread.Barnaul and Golden Bear did better today than last time.Rifle was rested and shouldered using the stock iron sights.

 

[lionking]

Results from testing a SAR2 in 5.45mm.Wolf black box shot good (surprisingly)Golden Tiger shot decent while the Wolf military classic was all over the place.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

These are great images. If good shooters find a WASR's 8"-10" group with Wolf at 100 yards acceptable then I'm pretty happy that I can do 12"-14" with my poor marksmanship.

 

[BeltfedMG]

I hit sewer lids at 365 yrds 27 out of 30 shots

Hit shilloutes at 400 about the same. All with open sights and its a SAR 2.

 

[jgatsios]

3MOA with an Arsenal SAM7-S with open sights. Could get even better with a scope. Arsenal is worth every penney.

Can't wait for Tech-Sight's AH peep sight to arrive....

 

[gsx1138]

I can get all my shots on a man sized target at 150 yds with open sights. That is semi rapid fire as well. While I don't think that's very good because the shots are all over the target, it's good enough for me.

 

[AK103K]

If good shooters find a WASR's 8"-10" group with Wolf at 100 yards acceptable

Its not. Any of them should be capable of 3-4" groups at 100 yards with ammo they like. All my AK's shoot about the same, regardless of cost or who made them. The least accurate guns I've owned were the ones assembled here from kits, and they cost more than my SAR's and WASR's. Guns originally assembled and whose receivers were barreled in the foreign factories that made them have always been the best shooters for me.


I shot this at 200 yards with a fairly early SAR1 using its stock iron sights and Wolf 154 grain SP's. The sights have a slight cant to boot. The lower group was from a rest to confirm zero, the upper from a cross legged sitting at a steady cadence.



This one was shot at 100 yards using a Krebs AK103K with an Ultimak/Aimpoint combo and Barnaul 125 grain SP's.. Again, cross legged sitting.



Same gun and range, slow fire offhand



These were 2 second snap shots from a low ready at 50(R) and 100(L) again with the Ultimak/Aimpoint.



If you can shoot, the AK will not generally be a problem. All of mine with red dots mounted have shot pretty much the same as my AR's with red dots on them. The groups on the targets look very similar, especially when shooting targets with no aiming points.

Ammo can have a big impact. Wolf has historically been hit or miss, sometimes its great, other times, its terrible. The old Barnaul 125 grain SP's have been the best in my experience. Its got bullets with a jacketed base (like most higher end ammo), and has always been very consistent. The Wolf I've pulled has a rolled crimp base, like most military type ball, but some has smears across the base, where others are clean. Those "smears" are not good for accuracy. I've reloaded "surplus" USGI 147 grain .308 bullets that looked similar (with the smear), and would not shoot less than 10" groups at 100 yards.


The two biggest internet fallacies are, the AK is inaccurate, and the AR is unreliable. The truth is, in both cases, its usually the shooter and owner who is lacking.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

Well, so far I've been shooting a mix of Wolf MC and Wolf Black Box accumulated over a few years. All I have is ammo cans full of loose Wolf - some grey and some green. I'm sure better ammunition would help but I'm also probably not a great rifleman seeing as I've tried to lean to shoot on my own using this AK.

 

[Mike U.]

AK103K wrote:

The two biggest internet fallacies are, the AK is inaccurate, and the AR is unreliable. The truth is, in both cases, its usually the shooter and owner who is lacking.

This is so very true, it should be gospel. Well said.

 

[SN13]

My 7.62x39, .308, and .30-06 Saigas all shoot 2" or less.

I've gotten multiple Sub-1.5" groups of 5 shots with Federal Match 168 and 175gr .308.

My best 3 shot group was .42" Too bad it ended up as a 5 shot group. (http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=30865&view=findpost&p=291959)