Cane for self defense? Please explain......

[hso]

escrima, hapkido, la canne, bartitsu,

 

[Carl Levitian]

"Thanks to everyone for the explanations. I'm always looking for new areas to train in and this sounds very intriguing. I'm wondering if you need to be into some form of martial art school before you can get into any form of stick defense or do classes and schools exist focusing on this form of defense?"
--------------------------------------------

You can always enlist in the army, and go for the pugil stick competition. If you make it to company champ, you're pretty decent. If you make it to battalion champ, you're good.

Either way, you learn to handle a stick pretty darn good. Especially with the riot training.

Carl.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Yeah, I was introduced to cane and jo over 10 years ago when I first ventured into HapKiDo.
Very useful.
Now, I'm on my way to a graduate degree in Physical Therapy and about to turn 40 this year. What I see with people aging and in PT tells me I want as few breaks, sprains, twists, and stretched connective tissue as possible over the remaining years. I already have a laundry list of injuries in my recent and longer ago past.
Cane and jo help me lessen the chance of getting more, despite my feeling that the world is probably going to become a more dangerous and less free place.

 

[Bobson]

I'm kind of on the OP's thought process here.

I look at it this way: You will not be employing KM when you're over 60 and your bones are becoming brittle. Get good with a cane now, and you'll master something that will serve you til the day you die the death of an old man, middle aged man, or young man.

I understand the benefit of a cane, particularly as pointed out by Sam (it is actually illegal to deny you entry with a cane to almost anywhere), but how exactly is a young man supposed to talk his way way around walking with a cane on a regular basis? Especially if that young man looks physically imposing (or at least very physically fit) and doesn't walk with a limp?

I'm no body-builder, and I'm not claiming to have any superb martial arts skills (I have none whatsoever), but people frequently tell me that I look like I'm ready to fistfight a grizzly bear. I can't even imagine the comments I would get (not to mention extra looks - and I don't want them) if I started walking with any kind of cane.

 

[Sam1911]

I can't even imagine the comments I would get (not to mention extra looks - and I don't want them) if I started walking with any kind of cane

Well, if you can't "pull it off" socially, then you can't. From a legal standpoint, you can't really even be questioned/challenged on the matter, so you don't have to worry about what the "fuzz" is going to think.

As far as why you tell folks who ask casually? That's up to you. But don't think it is an absurd thing to see. For one thing, we have a lot of young servicemen returning from tours overseas and more than a few of them are both very fit, and have injuries that are eased through canes or walking sticks. Certainly it would be extremely wrong to lie about military service -- I don't mean to suggest that you would. I'm just saying that 'young' and 'cane' aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[zxcvbob]

...and combined with provisions of the Privacy Act of 1974, means any person asking for "proof" of a disability can cram it, even if they're law enforcement, state or federal.

So what do you do if a cop hassles you or tries to confiscate your stick or arrest you for "suspicion of possessing a deadly weapon" or some such nonsense? Do you violently resist him (as per John Bad Elk v. United States) or what? I'm taking a somewhat sarcastic tone and I apologize for that, but it's a serious question. In some places, I fully expect LEOs to abuse my civil rights if they take any notice of me, because they know they'll get away with it.

 

[Cosmoline]

but people frequently tell me that I look like I'm ready to fistfight a grizzly bear.

Maybe you fought a bear and took a blow to the knee. Who's to know? Heck give it time and you'll eventually have something to limp about. Everyone who lives an active life gets some level of ortho trouble by 40. Might as well have the stick now.

Obviously if you're whipping the thing around and acting threatening with it, LEO's aren't going to fuss about the niceties of the ADA. But if you're using it to walk around and minding your own business, there's no reason for them to even notice or care.

 

[Bobson]

So what do you do if a cop hassles you or tries to confiscate your stick or arrest you for "suspicion of possessing a deadly weapon" or some such nonsense? Do you violently resist him (as per John Bad Elk v. United States) or what? I'm taking a somewhat sarcastic tone and I apologize for that, but it's a serious question. In some places, I fully expect LEOs to abuse my civil rights if they take any notice of me, because they know they'll get away with it.

That's a good point. IMHO, unless you're willing to spend the money (which I supposed you could win back in a settlement) to fight it in court, the best thing you could do is give up the cane and buy a new one.

You're right though, it's a crummy situation, and there isn't a lot you can do to "win" without sticking to your guns and filing a suit against the department. And if you aren't the "type of person to sue," you're pretty much SOL.

 

[Bobson]

What about this... is it actually a violation of any law to carry a cane/walking stick solely with self-defense in mind? I mean... let's say I started carrying a cane, and I didn't even bother denying the fact that I don't need it (if I'm asked about it, casually or otherwise).

I mean... considering the Americans with Disabilities Act. Can I just say, "I enjoy that it makes walking easier," and leave it at that? Is that legally enough that people can't require me to leave it behind in places where weapons are prohibited?

 

[Sam1911]

So what do you do if a cop hassles you or tries to confiscate your stick or arrest you ...

Like any other gross violation of your rights, smile, be polite, and then have your lawyer make his (and his department's) life miserable and expensive. And unlike gun rights violations, lawyers LOVE disability-related violations.

But really, this isn't likely to be much of an issue. Yeah, if you go out in public with a spiked club like some LOTR cave troll's weapon and swing it at people, you'll be "hassled." If you're out for a walk with any kind of normal-looking walking stick or cane, using it in some fairly reasonable manner, no cop in 100 is going to hassle you.

is it actually a violation of any law to carry a cane/walking stick solely with self-defense in mind?

Well, that can be tricky. Generally, no, but all sorts of items with perfectly mundane purposes become considered weapons when USED as weapons. Baseball bats are a great example.
Heck, wander up and down your street with a crow bar for too long and you just might get picked up for casing the neighborhood with burglary tools. But if you're fixing your deck, or you're a contractor with a whole pickup fool of carpentry tools, and you're not going to get hassled.

I mean... considering the Americans with Disabilities Act. Can I just say, "I enjoy that it makes walking easier," and leave it at that? Is that legally enough that people can't require me to leave it behind in places where weapons are prohibited?

Yes, absolutely. Have you never woken up with a sore joint? Well...you're probably young, yet... you WILL. A cane is for making walking easier. A prescription is not required. Since the ADA, the possibility of lawsuits has made the whole topic a bit of a "3rd rail." Questioning your "need" for a cane is not too far off from racist or sexist comments in terms of civil rights violation danger. A public employee knows better than risk anything like that these days.

 

[hso]

it's a serious question

No one seriously asks about fighting a law enforcement officer over a cane. You give it up, but no one seriously expects an officer to try to take a normal looking cane away from someone either.

The whole ADA argument is off target and grossly overstated, in my opinion. There's no need to be disabled to need a cane and there's no need to be disabled to have a cane make getting around easier. These days you see all sorts of versions of sticks and canes and staffs in use from hiking to power walking with trekking poles. Toss in a collapsable monopod and a digicam and you have a perfect cover for looking around while carrying a stick.

How do you explain a cane without a limp and otherwise appearing to be fit? The way I do. "It doesn't hold me up, but it does help keep me from falling down sometimes. Too much football/rugby/skateboarding/martial arts/rock climbing/horseback riding/motorcross... in my youth. Doc said to keep it with me and Mom/Wife grouses if she catches me going out without it." OR "Great little monopod. Screw the knob off and screw the camera on and you can get rock steady video or pix. Here, give it a try." OR "Yeah, I had a pit bull/german shepherd/pack of chiwawas attack me once and was able to grab a stick and run them off. Never been without one since."

Or carry an umbrella like a couple of us do.

Try thinking of all the tools you can reasonably carry around that make a good stick, stave or cane.

Legally you only have to worry about the laws against clubs and going with the intent to go armed or commit a crime or ... Carrying a cane to make walking easier isn't going armed.

 

[Bobson]

Thanks for the responses, Sam and HSO. Wasn't trying to be difficult - just curious.

 

[hso]

Bobson,

You're fine. It is hard on a young man's ego and self image to even think of themselves having to use a cane. As a student of marital arts I just consider them tools. As a student of human nature I understand that some of those tools have implications. Adapt the tool to fit your lifestyle and image.

Me, I have half a dozen canes (and 3 knee surgeries due to an overly active youth), a couple of collapsable monopods, a very expensive umbrella and thousands of dollars and hours spent on learning to make bad people leave me alone. I have flown internationally with all of those tools at one point or the other. An airport security checkpoint in the Middle East is about as daunting an environment anyone is likely to experience from a scrutiny standpoint and I've had no trouble over the cane or umbrella or monopod (but I have lost a couple of very nice pens).

 

[Derry 1946]

Carrying a cane and having no one question it -- the only advantage I have seen so far to senescence.

Great posts. Thanks, all, for the enlightening information.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

What do the experts think of something like this as a walking aid/weapon?

 

[zxcvbob]

What do the experts think of something like this as a walking aid/weapon?

Are you walking with it, or swinging it at everybody you meet? (it looks fine to me, but I'm not an expert)

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

My question was serious.

Are you walking with it, or swinging it at everybody you meet?

Is this?

 

[Bobson]

I'm no expert either, but it looks like a great walking aid to me, and would serve as an effective weapon too, provided it's made of a strong/durable wood.

If I was going to own (and use) a cane, that looks like a cane I'd be proud to be seen with, at least as far as aesthetics are concerned.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Reading the other cane thread, it seems to be important that your hands be able to slide along the shaft. The rough and sharp edges on the shillelagh, while they would certainly leave a mark on an opponent (which was my first thought), would seem to work against that. The large knob-shaped "handle" would give your hand a better grip than a "shepherd's crook" shape, or could be used to jab or bludgeon. Or should you use the sharp end for that?

I also can't help but wonder if any cane in the hands of an obviously able-bodied person would attract unwanted attention. At 5-9 and 150 lbs. I am not exactly imposing , but I walk just fine.

 

[Boomer...]

What do the experts think of something like this as a walking aid/weapon?

Well, its neither wood nor Made in USA if those aspects are important to you. I own a couple of Cold Steel walking sticks, but not their plastic Irish Blackthorn replica.

 

[Bobson]

It looks like Cold Steel doesn't make a single walking stick (that I could find) that weighs more than 30 ounces. The heaviest I found are the African Walking Stick (under 26 ounces), and aforementioned Blackthorn Walking Stick (under 29 ounces). I would think an important attribute of a defensive cane would be a fair bit of heft (maybe up to 3-4 pounds?). Would I be wrong in that assumption?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Well, its neither wood nor Made in USA if those aspects are important to you.

I just grabbed the first picture I saw off Google Images. Obviously I meant a real wood one.

 

[JohnKSa]

I started by inviting several perticipants to try and "stab" me with a big rubber training knife.

For what it's worth, trying to stab someone with a knife when they have (and are reasonably adept with) their own contact weapon is somewhere between very risky and suicidal.

If I were up against someone with a stick while armed only with a knife there is no way I would try to stab them as a first resort.

 

[H&Hhunter]

The only bat/cane training I have had is through KM and defending against it. IMHO it is MUCH easier to defend against that compared to a gun or knife

AOK,

As a KM instructor I have respectfully disagree with you on that point. KM stick defense against a trained motivated stick attacker is a very dicey proposition. I agree that the basics of the defense work pretty good against your basic baseball bat and overhead swings. But I've done drills with trained stick fighters and that is a whole other ball of wax. Not impossible but you ARE going to get some severe dings in the process.

 

[Boomer...]

It looks like Cold Steel doesn't make a single walking stick (that I could find) that weighs more than 30 ounces. <snip>

Ironically (to me, anyway) is that lack of weight was a major consideration in choosing to buy a C-S "Slim Stick" as a hiking aid alternative. I've owned a stout carved wood hiking staff for years which just hangs on the wall to display its unique tree wizard carvings. Its really too heavy, IMO, to carry for miles on end. My objective was to replicate functionality of an adjustable hiking stick (ski pole type) while being strong enough for "secondary purposes", so to speak as shown in this video. The C-S Slim in combo with heavier weight stainless ball head and a Black Diamond 3/8" ID rubber tip is hoped to serve those purposes well (see cane poll thread for my pics). Also to mention that I'm in my mid-60s with issues of aging, however no tactical training as mentioned by others.