Let me add that I have Revolvers, and sometimes carry a 38+p Titanium, and carried a S&W 60 for 20 years, but that was not what the question was about. The variables have changed, no one had the firepower that is available today, back then. Also there were very few people who had "vests" and a Browning hi-power was considered a "Killing machine". Now it's just another classic gun. So things change.
Capacity or Caliber, what is more important in a carry weapon
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Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
For me, I would give up capacity; in favor of the larger caliber, namely
.45 ACP~!
.45 ACP~!
I'll sacrifice capacity to a point. my XD compact .45 carries 10+1, good enough for me. A single stack 1911, good enough, but still getting kind of close to my "eh" zone.
Point is, no matter the caliber (however I prefer larger) I like to have somewhere close to 10. For example I would take a Walther PPS and sacrifice a bit of capacity for size. (8+1) of 40 S&W
Point is, no matter the caliber (however I prefer larger) I like to have somewhere close to 10. For example I would take a Walther PPS and sacrifice a bit of capacity for size. (8+1) of 40 S&W
Never heard of a "Failure Drill"? You are definitely one of those who need training over capacity.
Actually, I keep 8+1 in my M1911. Then I would reload.
Sounds like you live in video game fantasy world. When have you ever heard of an assault by nine armed people here in the USA?
Even if you were armed with a Glocked-up pistol using 30-rd mags, nine armed BGs would still take you down.
NMGonzo
Member
Most important is:
I carry the biggest weapon I can shoot well.
Today is a .44 magnum.
Temps go up and it is a .380
Dress formal and it's a full size 1911.
Most of the time a commander size.
I carry the biggest weapon I can shoot well.
Today is a .44 magnum.
Temps go up and it is a .380
Dress formal and it's a full size 1911.
Most of the time a commander size.
Mikhail Weiss
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Of those options, I'd rather have more bullets than few, so a high capacity 9mm or .40 caliber fits the bill, especially in a mid-sized gun. But that's largely because I'm not convinced there's any useful difference between these calibers or .45.
Precisely. I'm less concerned about missing than I am about the efficacy of any handgun round stopping a determined bad fellow. Thus I prefer the ability to inflict more hits than less.
That said, I sometimes carry an 8+1 .45, and I sometimes carry a 15+1 9mm. Most of the time, though, it's the latter. Mostly because it's smaller and lighter.
waterhouse
Member
I carry a single stack 9mm, so I guess I'm screwed either way.
bababooey32
Member
Many advocates of the hand cannons like to present the false dichotomy of their "well placed 8 shots" vs. my "blasting away" with a higher capcity gun.
For starters, in a gunfight there is a high likliehood that both of us will be much less accurate then when standing on the firing line down at the club.
Second, why does a higher capacity weapon automatically equal "spray and pray" to y'all? I can be just as careful with my shot placement with my 19+1 XDm as you can with your 7+1 1911. Conversely we can both resort to "spray and pray" if our training fails.
Long story short; let's dispense with the ridiculous notion that those of us that choose capacity over (approx) 0.09" difference in bullet diameter are somehow inferior marksmen who simply close their eyes and bump fire our firearms.
For starters, in a gunfight there is a high likliehood that both of us will be much less accurate then when standing on the firing line down at the club.
Second, why does a higher capacity weapon automatically equal "spray and pray" to y'all? I can be just as careful with my shot placement with my 19+1 XDm as you can with your 7+1 1911. Conversely we can both resort to "spray and pray" if our training fails.
Long story short; let's dispense with the ridiculous notion that those of us that choose capacity over (approx) 0.09" difference in bullet diameter are somehow inferior marksmen who simply close their eyes and bump fire our firearms.
Vitali
Member
It's funny to me all you guys talking about the importance of shot placement. The fact that you have to hit your target to be effective in a defensive scenario is not a tactical secret. Not only that, but it's clearly not what the OP asked. He asked a specific question, "In a carry weapon would you sacrifice the weight of the pistol for more capacity, or larger caliber. Assuming you had to give up one." Where did he ask if it was important to hit your target? I'm pretty sure he knows that already.
Not long ago I bought a Kel-Tec PM-9 for CC. So far it just rides in the car as I haven't felt the need to carry it. I chose it for it's small size, weight and the fact that I wouldn't feel comfortable in a defensive situation with anything smaller than 9mm. So i guess I'm not prepared to sacrifice the size and weight for capacity or caliber.
Not long ago I bought a Kel-Tec PM-9 for CC. So far it just rides in the car as I haven't felt the need to carry it. I chose it for it's small size, weight and the fact that I wouldn't feel comfortable in a defensive situation with anything smaller than 9mm. So i guess I'm not prepared to sacrifice the size and weight for capacity or caliber.
NMGonzo
Member
Ok ... 9 on the .45 .... 8 round reload
8 on the .380 ... 7 round reload.
6 on the .44 magnum .... 6 on the reload.
8 on the .380 ... 7 round reload.
6 on the .44 magnum .... 6 on the reload.
christcorp
Member
If you feel that capacity is very important, then I suggest it's more important to spend more time at the range and learn to hit what you're aiming at. As many have already said:
1. Shot placement is the most important. Place the shot correctly, and a 22LR will do the job.
2. Caliber size is next. The larger the hole, the more blood loss and damage. Especially if #1 above wasn't dead on accurate. But caliber size can be compromised if needed for better concealable firearms. I.e. there are times where my 9mm makarov or even my 32acp is the better choice depending on what I'm wearing, where I'm going, etc.... And yes, even a 32acp or 380 can penetrate enough. Modern day ammo is not like it was 40 years ago.
3. Capacity of magazine, for some people, should be next. As already mentioned, if you can't hit your target, then you probably shouldn't have a gun. Spray and Pray is not good. And no, you aren't the police, so you're not going to be breaking down doors to a drug house or taking on a gang during a raid. And you're not auditioning for Die Hard Pt5.
1. Shot placement is the most important. Place the shot correctly, and a 22LR will do the job.
2. Caliber size is next. The larger the hole, the more blood loss and damage. Especially if #1 above wasn't dead on accurate. But caliber size can be compromised if needed for better concealable firearms. I.e. there are times where my 9mm makarov or even my 32acp is the better choice depending on what I'm wearing, where I'm going, etc.... And yes, even a 32acp or 380 can penetrate enough. Modern day ammo is not like it was 40 years ago.
3. Capacity of magazine, for some people, should be next. As already mentioned, if you can't hit your target, then you probably shouldn't have a gun. Spray and Pray is not good. And no, you aren't the police, so you're not going to be breaking down doors to a drug house or taking on a gang during a raid. And you're not auditioning for Die Hard Pt5.
Pistol calibers are very poor fight stoppers with a single shot, regardless of caliber. If someone is under the influence of PCP or Meth or something similar, or a re really motivated, you are more than likely going to have to shoot them multiple times to stop them. We have all seen instances of deer and other critters that have taken multiple rounds from high powered rifles and kept going. I remember reading a story in Reader's Digest of an American soldier (WW2 I blieve) who took SEVERAL rounds of 8mm and kept fighting for several more minutes (and then lived). I have seen deer run a couple hundred yards after having their heart nearly obliterated. I remember in the Academy they showed us a video of a guy who was shot 5 times center mass with a 357 mag and kept fighting.
You can delude yourselves with "shot placement" and caliber if you want, shot placement is important, no doubt about it. But you can hit the heart and not always stop your attacker. Your caliber may start with a 4, but I promise you it is no where near as effective as a 30-06, 8mm, or 270, and those dont always stop with one shot either.
If you have a motivated attacker, you better plan on having to land several good hits with your handgun to stop him. You wont always have to, and there are plenty of examples where people haven't had to, but there are also plenty where they have. If you believe you are going to cleanly drop your BG with a single shot, you are ignoring reality. Might make you feel better, but you aren't as prepared as you want to think.
Now, with the knowledge that you may very likely have to shoot an individual multiple times to stop them, consider some of the following scenarios.
- You may have to face more than one attacker. I know some people believe they won't be in this situation, that their situational awareness will keep them out of it. Situational awareness is important, but it isn't perfect. Stuff happens. Ever got lost and taken the wrong exit in a big city? Thats just one of many ways you could wind up in the wrong situation. BG's often like to work together in groups. It gives them an advantage, and they will often do things together they wouldn't do separately. Figure 3-4 BG's and a couple of shots each, and maybe a few shots that aren't effective due to stress/circumstances and you are adding up quickly. Do you really want to be out of ammo when you THINK the fight is over, even if you THINK you won? There may be 1 or 2 more of them close looking for revenge.
- You may face a BG who is wearing armor, or something else that impedes the ballistics of your handgun. You may need multiple shots to defeat his armor, or you may dump several rounds COM before realizing what he has and then having to shoot for the head/pelvis.
- You may face an Active Shooter. There have been several hundred people in this country the last few years who have been in/near this situation, and I expect these episodes will continue to increase. Foreign terrorists activists, domestic terrorists, disgruntled unemployed, wacked out kids, political activists, we have seen all these different types engaging in mass shooting attempts in the last few years. Sure, it is better for you to E&E if you can, but you may not get the opportunity. Or you may have the opportunity to run away yourself, but see the opportunity to save other lives by engaging the BG.
- You may be in a situation where you need to expend rounds to keep your attackers head down as you move to better cover. Yeah I know, suppressive fire is not something generally taken into account when thinking about CCW, and there are plenty of situations where this would not be needed or not be a viable option because of bystanders. There are also plenty of situations where the ability to keep your attackers head down while you move to better cover could save your life.
You may think all of the above are unlikely. They are. So is the chance you will have to use your CCW in any situation. If you carry you have already chosen to insure yourself against a situation you won't have to face in any event. Your odds of needing your CCW at all are low, your odds of needing higher capactiy are even lower still, but they are not as much lower as some of you would like to believe.
Any type of CCW works better than nothing, but to say that your 5 shot revolver is all you will need is lying to yourself and others. If you believe that the added inconvenience of carrying a better gun is not worth it, more power to you, everyone gets to make their own decisions. But to say it is "good enough" is misleading. It may be good enough for the situation you have to confront. It may not be. A more honest approach would be to say that you have prepared yourself to face a single attacker in a limited number of scenarios. By your choice you have decided that if you are confronted with any of the scenarios outlined above, your limited capacity will also limit your chances of winning the fight.
My standard carry on duty is a G20 with 3 loaded magazines. The AR and the Mossy are in the car with me. My standard carry off duty is a G17 with 3 loaded magazines. Usually have a rifle in the truck. Sometimes I am put into situations where I choose not to carry the G17, I may choose my G26 in an ankle holster, or nothing at all. If I am going to be gone from home for a while I will often choose both the G17 and G26.
Does this mean I am assured of surviving an encounter? Nope. Still plenty of ways I could lose, but I have increased my percentages, even if just slightly. I may wind up in a situation where nothing short of a 308 rifle would have done the job, and all I have is my CCW and AR in the truck. I wish I could carry every gun I own around with me, but it is not practical. However, I don't choose to delude myself by thinking 5 shots is all I might ever need.
You can delude yourselves with "shot placement" and caliber if you want, shot placement is important, no doubt about it. But you can hit the heart and not always stop your attacker. Your caliber may start with a 4, but I promise you it is no where near as effective as a 30-06, 8mm, or 270, and those dont always stop with one shot either.
If you have a motivated attacker, you better plan on having to land several good hits with your handgun to stop him. You wont always have to, and there are plenty of examples where people haven't had to, but there are also plenty where they have. If you believe you are going to cleanly drop your BG with a single shot, you are ignoring reality. Might make you feel better, but you aren't as prepared as you want to think.
Now, with the knowledge that you may very likely have to shoot an individual multiple times to stop them, consider some of the following scenarios.
- You may have to face more than one attacker. I know some people believe they won't be in this situation, that their situational awareness will keep them out of it. Situational awareness is important, but it isn't perfect. Stuff happens. Ever got lost and taken the wrong exit in a big city? Thats just one of many ways you could wind up in the wrong situation. BG's often like to work together in groups. It gives them an advantage, and they will often do things together they wouldn't do separately. Figure 3-4 BG's and a couple of shots each, and maybe a few shots that aren't effective due to stress/circumstances and you are adding up quickly. Do you really want to be out of ammo when you THINK the fight is over, even if you THINK you won? There may be 1 or 2 more of them close looking for revenge.
- You may face a BG who is wearing armor, or something else that impedes the ballistics of your handgun. You may need multiple shots to defeat his armor, or you may dump several rounds COM before realizing what he has and then having to shoot for the head/pelvis.
- You may face an Active Shooter. There have been several hundred people in this country the last few years who have been in/near this situation, and I expect these episodes will continue to increase. Foreign terrorists activists, domestic terrorists, disgruntled unemployed, wacked out kids, political activists, we have seen all these different types engaging in mass shooting attempts in the last few years. Sure, it is better for you to E&E if you can, but you may not get the opportunity. Or you may have the opportunity to run away yourself, but see the opportunity to save other lives by engaging the BG.
- You may be in a situation where you need to expend rounds to keep your attackers head down as you move to better cover. Yeah I know, suppressive fire is not something generally taken into account when thinking about CCW, and there are plenty of situations where this would not be needed or not be a viable option because of bystanders. There are also plenty of situations where the ability to keep your attackers head down while you move to better cover could save your life.
You may think all of the above are unlikely. They are. So is the chance you will have to use your CCW in any situation. If you carry you have already chosen to insure yourself against a situation you won't have to face in any event. Your odds of needing your CCW at all are low, your odds of needing higher capactiy are even lower still, but they are not as much lower as some of you would like to believe.
Any type of CCW works better than nothing, but to say that your 5 shot revolver is all you will need is lying to yourself and others. If you believe that the added inconvenience of carrying a better gun is not worth it, more power to you, everyone gets to make their own decisions. But to say it is "good enough" is misleading. It may be good enough for the situation you have to confront. It may not be. A more honest approach would be to say that you have prepared yourself to face a single attacker in a limited number of scenarios. By your choice you have decided that if you are confronted with any of the scenarios outlined above, your limited capacity will also limit your chances of winning the fight.
My standard carry on duty is a G20 with 3 loaded magazines. The AR and the Mossy are in the car with me. My standard carry off duty is a G17 with 3 loaded magazines. Usually have a rifle in the truck. Sometimes I am put into situations where I choose not to carry the G17, I may choose my G26 in an ankle holster, or nothing at all. If I am going to be gone from home for a while I will often choose both the G17 and G26.
Does this mean I am assured of surviving an encounter? Nope. Still plenty of ways I could lose, but I have increased my percentages, even if just slightly. I may wind up in a situation where nothing short of a 308 rifle would have done the job, and all I have is my CCW and AR in the truck. I wish I could carry every gun I own around with me, but it is not practical. However, I don't choose to delude myself by thinking 5 shots is all I might ever need.
easyg
Member
It's a compromise of course....
I'm willing to give up a little capacity for a little more effectiveness in a carry gun.
I prefer the .40S&W, the .45ACP, or the .357Sig.
I'm willing to give up a little capacity for a little more effectiveness in a carry gun.
I prefer the .40S&W, the .45ACP, or the .357Sig.
Yet you may find yourself in a situation where that is all you have. Your only option may be to try to do the job with your pistol, or give up and just wait for death.
Lower capacity does not mean a higher liklihood of hits. (Actually the opposite is true). Even if we assume an equal ratio of hits, 17 hits on target is more effective than 5. Pretending that lower capacity means more accuracy is a rationalization game played by some who choose to ignore reality.
No, he apparently he is wiser than you. Fact is, these things happen. I am guessing you haven't done much hunting, or studying of how the human body reacts when being shot. People can still fight even after being killed. Sometimes it takes a while for the body to figure it out.
OK, here was the first result that came up when I googled it on google news. This just happened last week. Happens all the time. Does it happen as often as being assault by a single attacker? No, but to pretend it is not a possibility is just burying your head in the sand.
So what, if the odds are against you are just going to give up and die? If that is your mindset, good luck. Furthermore, perhaps they are armed with knives or clubs and chains. Perhaps they just have their fists but want to beat you to death with their fists. Maybe shooting 2-3 of them would cause the others to back off. Probably not if you are obviously out of ammo after shooting them.
This is an astonishing display of arrogance based on ignorance. If ignorance is bliss, you are buried in a blizzard.
bababooey32
Member
High capacity and good shot placement are not mutually exclusive. And what makes you think spending time atthe range putting holes in paper is going to prepare you properly to get "good shot placement" on a BG who is moving and shooting back?
Now, if there are just two attackers, a not unreasonable scenario, and the "avergae gunfight takes 3 shots", you have now expended 6 shots on two attackers leaving you with 2 shots left in a 1911. You better have a 100% hit rate and a 100% stoppage with those hits, or you now have a problem that I don't have. I have 13 more in my magazine.
I am not saying higher capacity is the be-all, end-all but I want to remind you that high capacity ≠ poor marksmanship!!
christcorp
Member
Yo Kentucky. How long have you lived in Lander? Are most of your "fears" based on living in Louisville or similar? Here in Cheyenne, with a lot of time in Denver, I don't feel the same as you do. I've only lived here however for 18 years. Prior to that, I was in many large cities because of military travel. Albuquerque, Austin, Miami, San Antonio, etc... I was born in the New York City / New Jersey metro area. I just never would have expected your position from someone in lander, riverton, thermopolis, etc... And based on your post, it sounds like you are in law enforcement. Which by nature is offensive and much different than self defense. Anyway, guess that's why Al Gore invented the internet; so we could find topics to debate.
I can see where you are coming from. It is pretty ironic, but I have never lived within 45 minutes of a town the size of Lander before. My wife jokes about how we have 1/2 as far to drive to a WalMart as we did before.
A big part of it is just me doing my best to hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Another part of it is the reservation here and all the crime associated with it. The biggest thing though is I just see the world getting meaner and more ruthless, and the population is increasing so fast. The results of generations of welfare, drug involvement, socialism, entitlement, video-game and tv babysitters is having it's effect. I see all the attacks in the national news, and I see so many things that are happening that aren't even making the news. I just feel like being as prepared as possible.
I understand those who don't feel the need to carry "more gun", but when they attack those of us who do and throw up ridiculous straw man arguments about how having more ammo means you will miss more, or refuse to acknowledge that more might ever be needed.
blaisenguns
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Retreat! If you find yourself "surrounded" than shoot a few of them and run like hell.
Sorry, learn your history. That is why they developed the .45ACP to replace the .38. It works.
For me the CCW is a 1911. I can take it apart, put it back together and load it blindfolded, it has been proven reliable for almost 100 years of service, and mine has night sights. When I do get my permit, I will consider a hi-cap 1911, or a revolver. I say the revolver is a good choice, because if I carry an auto without one in the chamber I have to rack the slide, but I can carry a revolver with an empty chamber, and simply pull the trigger. I worry more about a gun going off in my pants than being attacked by an Elite Delta Force of Rambo wanna-be’s hopped up on PCP.
Having been on of the early Vietnam guinea pigs with the M16 I can tell you that one large caliber bullet hitting a body pretty much anywhere is better than 4 little ones. I carry a Kahr P 45. the truth is if there are three or more of them one of them is going to get you. You can have 20 rounds in the magazine but the likelyhood of taking down more than two is just really slim at best. However if you are able to get off that shot at the third guy a 45 cal bullet in the shoulder will knock him down.
Most concealed carriers of the 1911 carry 8+1, not 7+1.
It's taken a long time, but I am trending towards capacity these days. Getting away from shooting static targets and shooting more dynamically did that to me. That's because even though the targets are neither moving (some pop up or out, but they aren't legging it) and they certainly aren't shooting back, they are far more difficult to solidly tag than one just sitting there down the lane. A human would be a tougher target still.
It's not "planning to miss" it's that even some of my hits while shooting on the move were marginal no matter what caliber was being deployed.
So I have been auditioning two different polymer 9mms at 17+1 for concealed carry, and I'm finding that packing that second double stack magazine is the likeliest show stopper on making any permanent switch away from the 1911. The weight savings is a wash with the added bulk.
I guess I am willing to trade a theoretical advantage in caliber for one of capacity, but not at the ultimate expense of ease of carry too.
It's taken a long time, but I am trending towards capacity these days. Getting away from shooting static targets and shooting more dynamically did that to me. That's because even though the targets are neither moving (some pop up or out, but they aren't legging it) and they certainly aren't shooting back, they are far more difficult to solidly tag than one just sitting there down the lane. A human would be a tougher target still.
It's not "planning to miss" it's that even some of my hits while shooting on the move were marginal no matter what caliber was being deployed.
So I have been auditioning two different polymer 9mms at 17+1 for concealed carry, and I'm finding that packing that second double stack magazine is the likeliest show stopper on making any permanent switch away from the 1911. The weight savings is a wash with the added bulk.
I guess I am willing to trade a theoretical advantage in caliber for one of capacity, but not at the ultimate expense of ease of carry too.
Lonestar49
Member
...
We talking about possibly a Beretta Px4 9mm and in D or C model.. ?
Or their new, to be released soon, "mid size Px4" about the same size height and length as the Sig P229 by size comparison-dimensions given?
Ls
Riss
Member
I think that the 40 S&W IS the compromise. A little more recoil than a 9mm, and more bullets than a 45 acp in a gun the size of a 9mm.
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