Capacity or Caliber, what is more important in a carry weapon

[Kingofthehill]

Capacity

 

[Mp7]

in the middle of nowwhere i´d sure love a hicap 9mm.
But other than that it´s a Q of how much u feel comfy with.

as said, unless i´d see need for more capacity ...
the slimmest, lightest most reliable is way better than
a stick.

so that would be a 5shots of 38, or up to 10
in any other smaller caliber auto.

If 8 or 9 attackers, or a zombie army come ..
...to your house grab something bigger and
call your neighbors to grab the SKS u gave them
for that purpose ...

If you get into a scenario like that on a forest trail
or in a side alley ... i assume that 99.8% its a failure
of avoiding it.

Hauling around max combat gear is imho like bringing
a parachute when flying.

 

[Leafy Cronmer]

Both have an advantage but neither are more important than shot placement.

If forced to pick one I guess I would choose capacity, but considering the max I could carry/have in California is 11 It don't really matter.

 

[wrs840]

The actual goal should to be to own all the "industry standards" and decide for yourself. For me, where I'm going determines what I'm wearing, which determines, (pretty much congruently), what I'm carrying.

Les

 

[earlthegoat2]

If you learn to shoot it should not matter.

 

[oneounceload]

Sounds like you live in video game fantasy world

THAT sounds it could apply to many on certain threads.........

IMO, to exclude revolvers from this whole discussion renders the purported intent moot

 

[Rexster]

First of all, I will NOT exclude revolvers.

I my area, bad guys tend to move in packs lately. I still feel OK with revolvers, but like to have more than one of them, which largely factors out the ammo capacity issue. I often carried a pair of SP101 snubbies from 2002 to 2007. I now carry a P229 .40, same as I carry on duty, but still like a spare firearm. A broken mainspring in an S&W sixgun 'way back in the 1980's still has me believing in spare guns, just as surely as experiencing flats has made me a believer in spare tires. So, while I don't carry two revolvers, or other handgun types, for reasons of capacity, the capacity is there, and is a comfort.

Modern defensive 9mm, 357 SIG, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP are engineered to largely perform the same at the terminal end, in gelatin and living targets. I could carry any of them with reasonable confidence that they would perform largely equivalently to each other. Some individual circumstances might favor one cartridge over the other, but we should, IMHO, carry what is best under a range of circumstances.

Moreover, "caliber" is simply a measure of bore size and bullet diameter. A fast smaller bullet may chop a larger hole in tissue than a larger slower bullet, but a larger, therefore heavier bullet might break a bone that the lighter bullet might not. This is a very simplistic example, as there are other factors involved, too.

FWIW, my currently usual carry guns are not a .40 because of any idea of compromise or "4+" bore diameter on my part, but simply because I work for a PD that now specifies .40 S&W as a duty cartridge, and my life is simpler if I tote the same weapons on my own time that I use at work. If also helps me to get maximum value out of the SIGs, as I must buy my duty pistols. (Less opening of the safe, less opportunity to mix up magazines and accessories, and of course, familiarity is a good thing. Beware the man with one gun....) Moreover, the P229 grip fits me VERY well, and the DA trigger stroke is a very close mimic of the very familiar S&W DA revolver trigger stroke. I may well convert MY P229s to 357 SIG after I retire, if I end up liking that cartridge better; I plan to try it out soon. Or, I may revert to SP101 revolvers, as they are also a superb fit in my hands, I prefer weapons that use "dry" lubricants, and I have experience-based confidence in the .357 Magnum cartridge.

In case it wasn't obvious, fit is important to me. Fit includes pointability and trigger stroke. Fit trumps caliber, cartridge, and capacity, within reason.

 

[Boats]

We talking about possibly a Beretta Px4 9mm and in D or C model.. ?

Or their new, to be released soon, "mid size Px4" about the same size height and length as the Sig P229 by size comparison-dimensions given?

The candidates are the Beretta PX4 and the M&P9 FS. I'm a big guy so concealing the pistols isn't a big deal as both are roughly the size of the Springer Champion I usually carry, the bitch is the extra magazine's thickness annoying me after so many years of the thin 1911 magazines. Chopping down on the pistol's grip frame or barrel length with some compact model is not going to make the shorter double stack mags any thinner.

So I am in constant debate over caliber versus capacity and think maybe I'll just become a rocket man on the 1911 reload instead.

 

[thorazine]

I prefer both.

For I might be amazingly accurate on the range but in a self defensive shooting where my aggressor(s) may be coming at me with lethal intensity and I will be shooting on the move while my aggressor(s) are on the move with adrenaline pumping through my veins...

I'll probably miss a few shots.

-and-

The human body is quite tough -- may require multiple (4...5...6...) shots to end the confrontation.

 

[VonZorch]

The most important thing is having a gun that's not so large and heavy that you leave it home.

 

[12131]

Kentucky, thanks for your rebuttal to CWL, which is more eloquent than I can do.
I personally didn't care for the assumptions and condescending attitude from CWL, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[jad0110]

Capacity or Caliber, what is more important in a carry weapon

For me, neither really. Caliber I suppose, I shoot .38 and .45 about as well as .22, so I tend to stick to those two calibers.

In the end, reliability and pointability figure in much higher on my list of priorities. IMO, the first shot is likely going to be the most critical. So I prefer a handgun I can draw the most rapidly and aim the most instinctively. For me, that gun is most certainly NOT a hi cap auto. 1911s and revolvers in particular (DA and SA) are what do that best for me, though I don't carry SAs as I consider myself a novice in their operation. So overall, my favorite carry guns are S&W K Frame revolvers chambered in .38 Special or .357 Magnum, though my Ruger Police Service Six is right up there.

If the most natural feeling gun to you is a Glock, great! Go for it! But it is a shame to rule out other platforms because of capacity. I know because I was once that way. Revolvers used to be "uncool" to me until I fired a guy's 4" S&W Model 66 and was shocked by how nice it felt in my hands.

As for capacity, I agree that saying "since the average number of shots is 2.3, you don't need more" is kinda silly. This is as irritating as "you don't need a gun, that is what the police are for", or "you don't need a 2,000 sq ft house" or "you don't need a 268 hp sedan" ... on and on.

Then again, the less common (and not yet seen in this thread) is the just as ridiculous "if your gun holds less than 15 rounds of ammunition, you don't care about your well being or that of your family, and you'll be dead before the fight even begins" garbage.

As for high capacity and spray and pray, I do not subscribe to the notion that having a lot of rounds automatically means you are going to sling lead all over town. But honestly, the vast majority of the spray and pray I see at the range, when it happens, does come from the hi cap side of the fence. I once saw a guy dump an entire 33 round mag from a Glock into a silhouette target 7 yards away. I think he hit vital areas with 3 shots, and hit the paper maybe another 7 times. The other 23 shots? Some hit the next county over I think .

 

[Deaf Smith]

Capacity or Caliber, what is more important in a carry weapon?

Gym,

Shoot'en strait. THAT is the most important thing. Strait shooting from the first to last shot and putting them where it counts is just way more important than how many BBs or how big those BBs are.

And of course, having a gun with you is real important to!

Deaf

 

[gallo]

Excuse Mr. BG would you mind standing still while I shoot you with three properly placed bullets out of my 5 shot snubby?

More bullets are better. The BG could careless if the bullets coming at him begin with a 2, 3, 4, or 5. He doesn't want to get hit.

At the range it's easy to focus on shot placement, but I suspect that when bullets are flying both ways, the concentration tends to brake. You need bullets to suppress fire.

 

[wrs840]

How about this for personal-protection "best" choices:

Own a couple of .38 revolvers that you know and shoot well. Add a .357 and .44 or two if you're so inclined to commit to shooting them well, and feel your circumstances warrant them, or if you just really want to excel with those.

Also own a modern .380, a couple of 9s, and a couple of .40s that you know and shoot well.

If you dig a 1911, or a 10mm, or a .357 Sig, great... "go for it" on those also.

This thread seems to ask for one "best" "fits-all" solution at the exclusion of all others. I think that's a flawed and illogical question.

Les

 

[nitetrane98]

I'll take performance over capacity. If I can't finish my business with 9 Double Tap 165 gr Gold Dots my tactics and markmanship suck and I'm going to Hotel Alpha.

 

[MariusDP51]

If I am carrying for personal protection, I'd go for the biggest cal that is not too bulky to effectively pull and shoot. A .45 revolver imo. How often (maybe there are stats?) do you have to face more than three or four muggers/attackers? I'd rather slam a .45 slug into each of them at close range than double tap all of them with my 9mm.

For work I carry a 9mm plus extra mag with Gold Dot ammo, capacity is king in this situation due to the nature of the possible threat. I'll be prepared for situations where an attack on my client is carried out by a team.

So for me it depends on the reason you carry, and when making this choice maybe keep in mind that decent ammo could produce better results in a smaller cal than less effective ammo in a large cal. Initial wound trauma causes the body to shut down momentarily when that trauma is severe enough. A rapidly expanding bullet from a 9mm can have the same affect as a normal copper jacket from a .45. (this is just an example, not a scientific fact)

 

[gym]

I think "Kentucky", has the best overall answer. Several said the same thing in other ways. The "shot placement" arrogance, really has to go. Assuming some of us have been shooting for 30-40 years, we know where and how to shoot. The question of Caliber vs Capacity isn't about placement. Until you have one or two people shooting at you, it's difficult to imagine. Perhaps best said by a retired Sherriff friend. "i was trying to dig a hole through the bottom of the cruiser" That's how scared you get. But again that isn't the question, every situation is going to differ. How long till help arrives, is help on the way, or are you stuck some ware by yourself. Border patrol guys I knew carried a crapload of things that normal cops wouldn't think of carrying, extra water, rifles, 1000 rounds of ammo. Back in the 70-80's they might get stuck for hours or even a day, pinned down by a bunch of drug dealers. This is strictly the far end of the spectrum. In real life just because you may carry 19 rounds in your glock, doesn’t mean that you aren't a good shot. It just means that you elected to carry 19 rounds vs 5 or 6. And as mentioned shooting on the run and possibly wounded, by a gang or crew, isn't unheard of anymore. I live in a good neighborhood, "what does that have to do with anything", if you were a crook, would you go stick up people in the poor section or the rich part of town. When a car follows another car home late at night, do you think it's the 10 year old truck or the new Benz or Rolls that they follow into the garage?
An old friend had a classic rolls silver cloud and was followed home, luckily he saw the vehicle and was armed, shots were fired, and the suspect fled. That was ten years ago in Boca. What caliber/capacity would you chose to have after re thinking this.
He had his Glock 19.

 

[CWL]

12131,

I still think you live in a fantasy video game world. If there were 9 BGs that wanted to get me, I'd probably be down before I even realized it.

Capacity will never take the place of professional training and constant practice (combined with situational awareness.)

I've been shot at, have you?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Capacity will never take the place of professional training and constant practice (combined with situational awareness.)

Neither capacity nor caliber will take that place.

One adapts to what one has for a weapon. If they have a 5 or 6 shooter they have no real choice but to make the shots count. Those with 17 shooters or so can have a bit more leeway but failure to get good hits will lead to taking hits.

And this applies to the bore size to. Plenty of people have taken hits from .45s and stood. Don't spend your time thinking the big gun has the final say.

Like CWL said, practice (for strait shooting), good situational awareness (to see it coming) and training to help you attain them.

 

[jbrown50]

Gym, my answer to your question is 'capacity'.

But.....if you already had determined your answer to the question then why did you ask it?

I'm not a cop, just a legally armed citizen. I have to be discrete about my carry in most of the places I frequent. The majority of the capacity respondents to your question in this thread are cops. Of course they can emphasize large high capacity handguns because they have a different mandate and can get away with carrying them almost anywhere but, would they feel the same way about a legally armed citizen carrying a Glock 17 with two spare 18 round magazines into the local police station to ask directions?

You call the emphasis on shot placement 'arrogance' yet the majority of people who have actually been in gunfights point to this, not capacity or bullet size, as the reason they survived.

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Operations-and-Tactics/Accuracy---Speeds-Important-Partner/3$45754

Armchair gunfighters these are not. Capacity is nice to have just in case but it doesn't make up for the mindset that's needed in order to come out on top in those first few critical seconds of a gunfight.

 

[jad0110]

An old friend had a classic rolls silver cloud and was followed home, luckily he saw the vehicle and was armed, shots were fired, and the suspect fled. That was ten years ago in Boca. What caliber/capacity would you chose to have after re thinking this.
He had his Glock 19.

Well, if I wanted to split hairs I'd say I'd avoid the situation to begin with. But if I couldn't, I 'd want either my 12 gauge or my AR-15. Realistically, I'd most likely be carrying one of my DA revolvers, odds being my 4" Ruger Police Service Six .357 Magnum. I'd rather avoid the fight if at all possible, but I'd be fine with this setup as that Ruger is reliable, accurate and points pretty instinctively in my hands.

Can't say the same for a Glock; I can't hit squat with them. As always, to each his own.

But if in a car, I'd just do my best to escape before opening fire.

You call the emphasis on shot placement 'arrogance' yet the majority of people who have actually been in gunfights point to this, not capacity or bullet size, as the reason they're alive today.

I was thinking the same thing; it is what it is. Say what you want, but you still have to put shots COM or to the neck/lower cranium area for the best chance of stopping an attack. This is why I and many others put the greater emphasis on the software side of the equation, not hardware.

In saying that, I don't mean to imply that my software is in perfect running order, because it isn't. I've got plenty of bugs I need to train out, but I at least know what it is I need to work on.

As my CCW instructor pointed out, compared to self defense by private citizens, the military's emphasis is basically to hurtle enough lead down range that eventually a badguy will walk into a piece of it . OTH, he pointed out that a citizen doing this in any location but Bum <Beep> Egypt is looking for trouble. But, I think most would agree this is just common sense.

Not arguing against capacity. More rounds, all other things equal, certainly is a good thing. But all things are rarely equal, so go with what works for you and don't sweat the hardware so much.

 

[fastbolt]

You call the emphasis on shot placement 'arrogance' yet the majority of people who have actually been in gunfights point to this, not capacity or bullet size, as the reason they survived.

I can think of a number of instances where this concept has been considered to have some merit.

Capacity will never take the place of professional training and constant practice (combined with situational awareness.)

I agree, and would include caliber considerations to a reasonable degree, as well.

For example, during some recent training I had the chance to listen to some cops discuss shooting situations in which they had been seriously wounded.

One of them involved a situation which had been recorded on an open line, involving 3 cops and 1 armed suspect. As I remember, a total of 31 rounds were fired within just 10 seconds by the time the shooting was over. The cop who ended the incident had received several serious gunshot wounds, as had the suspect. He said when he was laying on the ground seriously injured he took the time to aim at the suspect's head and fired until the suspect stopped shooting. I think I remember that it was determined that he made 3 rapid and accurately placed head shots to end the fight (I'd have to check my notes). He was shooting a 9mm.

Another cop took us through his shooting incident in which he exchanged shots with an armed suspect from relatively close range (5 feet) to as far as 100 feet, if I remember right (I'd have to again check my notes). He said that it wasn't until he realized that he was on his last magazine, was seriously wounded and the suspect was still shooting at him, that he said he realized he had to stop shooting 'instinctively' and settle down to use his sights. He fired 2 rounds (shots 22 & 23, I seem to recall) which hit the suspect and stopped the fight long enough for help to arrive. The cop was shooting a .40 S&W.

Another cop took a hit through the lower part of the heart from a .357 Magnum revolver at close range, but managed to fire 4 rounds from an issued 9mm and stop the attacker (killing him), before succumbing to the life-threatening injury which required extensive surgery and recovery time. The cop credits being able to effectively use the shooting skills received in training and which she had practiced a lot.

I remember watching a tape during a lecture where a cop known as a fine marksman during training was only able to make 1 hit on an armed attacker during a shooting incident resulting from a vehicle stop. Stress can have adverse affects, especially when it's the result of hormonally induced (fear) and not only the result of physical exertion.

I've spoken to a number of other cops who have been involved in shooting situations, a number of whom I've worked with on the range.

I can only remember a couple of them mentioning any preference for caliber.

One of them was involved in an off-duty shooting with an unknown (fled) suspect who had apparently been armed with a 9mm pistol, while the off-duty gentleman had only been armed with a .25 ACP. The distance involved in the shooting was farther than that typically reported, described as across a city street. The off-duty cop wasn't wounded and it was unknown if the suspect who fled had been wounded, but the cop immediately got himself a larger off-duty weapon. He seemed to take his sessions at the range a bit more seriously, too.

While calibers, ammunition, guns and situations have varied among the cops and civilians I've known who have used handguns to defend themselves, a couple of things which seem to have remained consistent is that handgun wounds which have hit and penetrated into critical parts of the anatomy have seemingly been more effective than rounds which hit less critical anatomical structures, organs and tissues, as well as rounds which entirely missed the target.

Skillset is important. Mindset is important. Proper, realistic training can help with both. Sufficiently frequent practice is important. Shooting is a perishable skill.

Oh yeah. Once time we invited a couple of guys from the local shooting club to participate in some simple qualification drills. I know one of the guys is a very skilled, experienced and accomplish competitive shooter who has enjoyed success at Camp Perry pistol shooting. Once he put on a gun belt and holster, though, and was facing a silhouette target instead of a bulls-eye target, he was pretty dismayed to find out that he experienced a different type of stress and delivered a rather basket-ball sized group at fairly close range.

This isn't the first time I've had the opportunity to see something along this line, either.

It was much the same in the martial arts. Some folks do well in non-confrontational training. A smaller number do well in limited contact competitions. A smaller number do well in more challenging competitive conditions involving more physical contact. And even a smaller number seem able to rise to the challenge of effectively utilizing their skills when faced with an actual attacker in an unexpected situation. Dunno. Just my thoughts.

I'd hope that most folks wouldn't mistakenly overlook the importance of mindset, training, skillset and sufficiently frequent practice to maintain skills under stressful conditions, in favor of placing what might turn out to be an unfortunately misplaced amount of confidence in any particular caliber or weapon capacity.

I still remember the last time I was specifically fired upon. It happened when I was in my car, involving a person, or persons, unknown. It really didn't matter what gun I was carrying at the time since I wasn't in a position to be able to locate and identify my attacker(s?), let alone effectively employ my handgun. I DA'd the area after the second round hit the window behind me and reported it to the locals. They weren't all that surprised, and I later found out I wasn't the only victim who had made a report. This was probably 20 years ago.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I shoot 9mm. It'll do the job as long as I get good hits on my target.

I've CCW'd consecutively since 1984. Carrying a gun is a PITA.

I live in Florida. Size and weight are important to me. The lightweight fabrics of warm weather clothing, coupled with a breezy day, increase the challenges of concealed carry.

I currently carry a Kahr PM9 with a spare magazine. My primary mode is IWB appendix carry although there are times I carry IWB behind strong side hip.

When I lived in the Seattle area I carried a Glock 19, IWB behind strong side hip. The weather there allowed me to wear a light concealment jacket almost year round.

 

[orionengnr]

Move to Kali. The legislators will make the choice for you. 10 round magazines or less.

Therefore, the biggest caliber that gives you 10 rounds in a gun that you have to conceal, since you can't get a CCW unless you are Nancy Pelosi, or Diane F.

THR does not advocate (or tolerate posts advocating) breaking the law, at least the last time I checked. So this argument is irrelevant.

Each of us makes our choice.

I'm okay with 6 rounds of revolver or 7-9 rounds of single-stack .45 acp semi-auto.