Carry a spray? What’s your ‘draw to spray’ time?

[shafter]

Tasers are really not on topic here. A taser is compliance tool for law enforcement, and it is nota practical less lethal means fore civilian self defense.

Address that with the person who brought it up then.

 

[wayneinFL]

Tasers are really not on topic here. A taser is compliance tool for law enforcement, and it is nota practical less lethal means fore civilian self defense.

I guess if you use a Taser to stop someone from shoplifting or vandalizing your home, it's a compliance tool, but it was designed to stop an attack. Police use them often (sometimes effectively, sometimes not) to stop attackers who are using deadly weapons to attack people.

"Not practical less lethal means for civilian self defense" is an opinion, but I think it might work for some people in some situations.

 

[Kleanbore]

it was designed to stop an attack. Police use them often (sometimes effectively, sometimes not) to stop attackers who are using deadly weapons to attack people.

And to do so, they use them to immobilize persons who have not complied with orders to stop, before taking them into custody.

"Not practical less lethal means for civilian self defense" is an opinion, but I think it might work for some people in some situations.

A civilian acting alone would be poorly served by temporarily immobilizing an attacker before trying to safely keep him under control, which would likely be unlawful if not just highly imprudent.

 

[shafter]

I guess if you use a Taser to stop someone from shoplifting or vandalizing your home, it's a compliance tool, but it was designed to stop an attack. Police use them often (sometimes effectively, sometimes not) to stop attackers who are using deadly weapons to attack people.

"Not practical less lethal means for civilian self defense" is an opinion, but I think it might work for some people in some situations.

They really aren't defensive tools. They're more properly described as an offensive non lethal tool for specific situations related to taking people into custody. Extremely limited civilian applications for them.

If law enforcement uses them against someone with a weapon such as a knife or blunt object it's typically with other officers prepared with a lethal option.

 

[BushMaster-15]

Well, a captain, especially in a major metropolitan law enforcement agency, is an administrator, and in my experience, most folks who aspire to promote past sergeant don't have much in the way of recent patrol experience on the streets, so I take the opinions of anyone higher than a lieutenant with a grain of salt. Of course, I was an Axon-certified TASER instructor, and of any less-lethal devices in our inventory, I'd prefer a TASER over OC every day of the week (at least on anyone not wearing a puffy jacket, snowmobile suit or dressed for elk season. TASERs work quite well in Southern California, Florida, Arizona, for example... and in prisons.

The "documented failure rate of the TASER" is very misleading. TASERs do fail, regularly, but it's not the device itself, it's a failure of the application. Unless you've been out on the streets fighting, you don't know the effects of adrenaline, fear, extreme physical movements, rapidly evolving situations and fatigue, so getting the darts to deploy correctly (solved with the last couple versions with good laser) and hit the right muscle groups with good spacing is the challenge. Also, before going out on patrol/shift, you need to verify your device is charged -- I cannot tell you how many times I've seen officers fail to do this. Or that the cartridge(s) are probably loaded.

One of my old course books had this blurb: Analyzed 504 use-of-force incidents in large police agency wherein OC spray or TASER energy weapons were used, and found TASER energy weapons were substantially more effective than OC spray, with energy weapons effective 90.2% of the time and OC spray effective only 73.8% of the time.

Never had to use bear spray on an actual bear, but having used OC on multiple (maybe 30 or 40) occasions over the years, I've seen OC be quite effective on human subjects (especially on me).

My point is, there are probably no good ways to quantify the effectiveness of some of these devices because every situation is different and there are so many variables and external, environmental factors that come in to play. However, the new devices have nice, downloadable event logs and video, so the evidence should be building up.

The only thing we ever worried about is how we're gonna write up the use-of-force reports and whether we get to the end of watch and can go home with no one getting seriously injured or killed.

He didn't become a Captain overnight ,he started as a Rookie Deputy about 30+ years ago .

 

[BushMaster-15]

Tasers have a fairly poor track record that's well documented but for human interactions it's not an either/or between gun or taser. Both are very separate tools and not interchangeable. If the taser doesn't work you transition to another non lethal option.

I've lived in bear country most of my life and found spray very effective. Lead works too but I've met very few people who can shoot a big bore handgun fast enough and accurately enough to hit such a small moving target. Not an easy shot to practice for either.

It's WHY I Practice Practice and Practice . Question is WILL I BE ABLE TO DO IT WHEN NEEDED . That I can't answer but can tell you and everyone else ;
One morning Deer hunting O dark hundred ,I had managed to climb ( in the dark ) a 60 Deg. slope about 75 yd. . When Nature called ,so seeing a couple of large fir trees , I set MY Rifle against one and proceeded to squat against the other . Trees were maybe 10 -15 ft. apart hard to say in the Dark but moist definitely OUT OF ARMS LENGTH !. So passing the time I'm looking at a smallish bush perhaps 20-30 ft. again estimate ,when I notice another small bush MOVE , then a LARGER BUSH moved a few seconds that smallish bush also moved . As night was becoming light and I had now finished moving rather carefully to MY Rifle . I realized it was the #3 Bears , Mamma and #2 cubs . She put herself between ME and the 1 St. cub as she was backing out with the other in tow . I never raised MY Rifle or drew MY pistol . I had startled her nearly as badly as I'd startled MYSELF .

I wasn't scared or in fear of MY life . I was concerned for the next 5.5 hr. however . Damned if she and her cubs didn't dog Me ,as I traversed the side of a mountain She and siblings maintained a cushion around 50-100 yd. up the hillside from Me . I'd move up so would they ,I'd go down and they would follow .
At first I was somewhat amused but later on it became somewhat worrisome

When I finally rendezvoused with My hunting partners nearly 6 hr. later ,one of them remarked he had seen Me earlier in the AM and noticed the Bears trailing Me above . NO Deer were in our vicinity to say the least !. All Cinnamon Brown Bear's .

MY motto is Let them be but BE PREPARED ,because they are ALWAYS PREPARED and can close quickly if it's their intention or double back on your trail .

 

[shafter]

You're right. Train and prepare. Keep it real.

 

[Old Dog]

OC, bear spray, TASERs... lots of conjecture by those who've never used these tools in the real world.

 

[BushMaster-15]

OC, bear spray, TASERs... lots of conjecture by those who've never used these tools in the real world.

Was witness to someone many many years ago who did use Bear spray ,outcome was mixed . Lived but marked up badly .

As I said I carry both but honestly with Grizzly's , I prefer to warn them beyond spray range and let them be " IF POSSIBLE " .

I remember when I was a kid one of our neighbors kids , believed poking a hornets nest was amusing ; UNTIL IT WASN'T !. That boy had welts head too toe .

I walked away unscathed and jumped into the next door neighbors pool . Some learn from mistakes other by example and others sadly NEVER learn .

I believe it's why we have PRISONS , NO ?.