Carry a spray? What’s your ‘draw to spray’ time?

The underlying issue is what to do if deadly force cannot be justified.
Running helps LOL. I know its not cool to talk about non lethal alternatives on a firearms forum but outside of being faster than your attacker its about all you have outside of talking to them and trying to settle them down. Or..... you act crazier than them so they run away.

I carry Halt primarily because I cant outrun a Pitbull if they get dialed into their "mode". Im not one to get intimidated or freaked out by a strange or hostile acting human. I just steer clear and disappear. Its a little different if my kids are with me which is the main reason I carry. However... its pretty rare that someone attacks a grown man with kids minding their own business. I worry about poor drivers more than anything. Situational awareness in a car is more important than on foot these days and I even see LEO texting (or whatever they are doing) while they drive now. Strange days.

Carrying a small bottle of spray has merit though and people have been doing it since well be CCWs became popular. Theres also stun guns but you have legalities involved plus pretty close contact. Ive never carried a tazer.
 
Unlike a pistol, you can hold a can of pepper spray in your hand, in a non-threatening manner, in preparation to defend yourself, and you can do it anytime you feel threatened. It's not a deadly or dangerous weapon.
 
I've carried gas for over 21 years professionally, and have used it more than once. Pepper spray, even the best ones are NOT perfectly reliable, not even close - I've had inmates that are immune to it. Watched one guy lick it off and comment that it would go great on tacos.
I don't carry gas off duty. I have enough junk on my off duty belt I don't need another item that I am rarely if ever going to use. Situational awareness, not going to sketchy areas, big ways to avoid issues. Also, pepper spray is absolutely a dangerous weapon - we call it Less Than Lethal rather than Non Lethal for a good reason - ever seen someone with asthma gassed? Are you in a crowded area/windy area when you spray? Did you just accidentally gas Grandma who left her rescue inhaler at home? Gas is non discriminatory and goes wherever the wind takes it. That cancer patient who is on oxygen twelve feet away with the wind in their face might be inclined to sue, if they can breathe long enough. So absolutely you HAVE to think about how you use it and where - ever seen anyone spray into the wind? It's REALLY funny on video AFTER the incident is over, if they don't get injured. Not so funny if you gas yourself spraying into the wind - the mugger will really appreciate it, though, makes it MUCH easier to curb stomp you.
 
Running helps LOL. I know its not cool to talk about non lethal alternatives on a firearms forum but outside of being faster than your attacker its about all you have outside of talking to them and trying to settle them down. Or..... you act crazier than them so they run away.
My wife can't even walk without a cane. She certainly can't run. What do I do now?

I've read several of your posts in this discussion alone and you strike me as someone who's never actually had a real world defensive encounter.

You also strike me as a person with probably zero training.

just a thought, but you might want to sit back and let the grown folks talk okay?
 
My wife can't even walk without a cane. She certainly can't run. What do I do now?

I've read several of your posts in this discussion alone and you strike me as someone who's never actually had a real world defensive encounter.

You also strike me as a person with probably zero training.

just a thought, but you might want to sit back and let the grown folks talk okay?
Im not easily baited or intimidated and you dont impress me with your ignorant assumptions and comments ..... OKAY?
 
People
The underlying issue is what to do if deadly force cannot be justified.
People and places and if it's not justified retreat is on the table for me. If one wants to carry spray then so be it and that's their right.
 
Running helps LOL.
Running may help some people in some circumstances--or not.
outside of being faster than your attacker its about all you have outside of talking to them and trying to settle them down.
Not if you have a less lethal alternative.
it's not justified retreat is on the table for me.
Why on Earth would anyone be more inclined to retreat if the threat appears to not justify deadly force than if a threat of death or serious harm may be imminent?
 
I've carried gas for over 21 years professionally, and have used it more than once. Pepper spray, even the best ones are NOT perfectly reliable, not even close - I've had inmates that are immune to it. Watched one guy lick it off and comment that it would go great on tacos.
I don't carry gas off duty. I have enough junk on my off duty belt I don't need another item that I am rarely if ever going to use. Situational awareness, not going to sketchy areas, big ways to avoid issues. Also, pepper spray is absolutely a dangerous weapon - we call it Less Than Lethal rather than Non Lethal for a good reason - ever seen someone with asthma gassed? Are you in a crowded area/windy area when you spray? Did you just accidentally gas Grandma who left her rescue inhaler at home? Gas is non discriminatory and goes wherever the wind takes it. That cancer patient who is on oxygen twelve feet away with the wind in their face might be inclined to sue, if they can breathe long enough. So absolutely you HAVE to think about how you use it and where - ever seen anyone spray into the wind? It's REALLY funny on video AFTER the incident is over, if they don't get injured. Not so funny if you gas yourself spraying into the wind - the mugger will really appreciate it, though, makes it MUCH easier to curb stomp you.
I carried pepper spray for several years on patrol. I also carry it as a lawful force option as a private citizen.

Pepper spray isn't listed as a dangerous weapon in my state's RCWs (Dangerous weapons—Penalty). (This is why it's important to know your state laws.)

Pepper spray is SO DANGEROUS that my state's RCW (Personal protection spray devices) allows children as young as 14 to lawfully carry pepper spray.

Pepper spray isn't a "gas", it's an aerosol mist or stream.
 
The underlying issue is what to do if deadly force cannot be justified.
I'm trying to think of a situation where I would be justified in using force but not deadly force.

Run, Hide, Fight really isn't a bad concept. If I can get away, I'm going to get away. Hide really isn't applicable to anything other than an Active Shooter Situation and Fight is always the last option.

I think what it comes down to for me is whether or not the other person has displayed a weapon or whether or not they put their hands on me.

Crazy crackhead yelling and screaming and threatening to kill me, the spray is coming out as I'm moving away. If he follows me he gets the Frank's Red Hot.

Crazy crackhead approaching me in a threatening manner, with a visible weapon gets sprayed immediately.

I don't let people I don't know touch me, I don't let people I don't know close enough to me to put their hands on me and I'm not afraid of telling them LOUDLY to back TF off.

Ignoring boundaries is a HUGE red flag.

Continuing to attempt to engage me after I've told you to back off is another  HUGE red flag. It's actually just a variation of ignoring boundaries but it's still a huge red flag.

If someone that I did not know grabbed me I would respond to that as a deadly threat, visible weapon or not.
 
Why on Earth would anyone be more inclined to retreat if the threat appears to not justify deadly force than if a threat of death or serious harm may be imminent?
Why do you want to jack with someone if your life is not in danger? If the perp is not attacking screw him. and move on. If he is attacking, your are entititled to defend yourself. To each his own I suppose...
 
Why do you want to jack with someone if your life is not in danger? If the perp is not attacking screw him. and move on. If he is attacking, your are entititled to defend yourself. To each his own I suppose...
Whole lot of Wisdom in your post. Thank You
 
Why do you want to jack with someone if your life is not in danger? If the perp is not attacking screw him. and move on. If he is attacking, your are entititled to defend yourself. To each his own I suppose...
It may not be "a" perp, it could be more than one adversary.

Circumstances aren't always black and white. There's usually a lot of gray area in between black and white.
 
No two situations are alike. Just be prepared to accept the decision you make. Carry on...
 
I carried pepper spray for several years on patrol. I also carry it as a lawful force option as a private citizen.

Pepper spray isn't listed as a dangerous weapon in my state's RCWs (Dangerous weapons—Penalty). (This is why it's important to know your state laws.)

Pepper spray is SO DANGEROUS that my state's RCW (Personal protection spray devices) allows children as young as 14 to lawfully carry pepper spray.

Pepper spray isn't a "gas", it's an aerosol mist or stream.
We call it gas because we can. I didn't reference your state because I don't know where or who you are. My Department calls it less than lethal, as our Use of Force class I've taken for over 21 years. Never once did I ever state there were any specific purchase restrictions here either - it can be purchased at many retailers OTC. And pepper spray comes in spray, stream and foam, as well as pepper balls, (synthetic OC, FAR less effective, personal direct experience), muzzle blast in the 37mm and 40mm, as well as OC grenades and projectiles, not to mention our fun 37mm SCAT rounds. For our personal handheld device, we use stream. Also, Sabre Red is lousy; Phantom is the Devil's own farts.
 
Last edited:
When I'm headed into National Parks ,I carry Bear spray but also MY .44 mag. . Like I told the Ranger one day ,we'll argue about it in court as I intend to be in attendance . Ironically a Female Ranger was mauled to death a month or so back . NO report whether she had or used Bear spray but retrospectively , I'll bet My last $ she wishes she'd carried a gun !.
 
I don't view irritant spray as what I am going to use in a lethal situation. Where I need it quickly. In that situation I am going straight to my firearm if life is in danger. Spray is an option. Another tool in the toolbox as it were. Where violence is escalating but not to a lethal level. For example, I have used spray with great effect on an aggressive wild dogs who didn't want me around rather than shooting it. If it had jumped to my throat or body, firearm would have been the option.
 
I carry a can of pepper spray in my front left pocket, but I’ve recently come to the conclusion that it's mostly just a talisman. To actually use it I have to reach into my pocket and then grasp and orient it correctly before using it. I could probably draw, aim and halfway empty my gun in the amount of time it would take to draw and deploy my spray.

If you carry a defensive spray how do you carry it? How long does it take you to draw and correctly orient it before pushing the button?

Train with the spray until you get the same time. It's good to train all aspects of self defense and not just the cool ones.
 
When I'm headed into National Parks ,I carry Bear spray but also MY .44 mag. . Like I told the Ranger one day ,we'll argue about it in court as I intend to be in attendance . Ironically a Female Ranger was mauled to death a month or so back . NO report whether she had or used Bear spray but retrospectively , I'll bet My last $ she wishes she'd carried a gun !.

It's pretty well proven that spray is more effective. Bears have extremely sensitive eyes and noses and a whiff of that stuff will make them get out of dodge. Anywhere else and their pain tolerance is through the roof so unless you get lucky by hitting a bouncing target the size of a tennis ball and drop it in it's tracks you're probably going to get torn apart.
 
It's pretty well proven that spray is more effective.
That's such BS I've gotta call you on this. Statistics can be used in any multitude of ways, and the studies of bear attacks have proven to be a contentious issue. Aside from the subjectivity -- or the political aspects -- there've been a lot of studies, and a lot with no living witnesses. But the biggest variable is simply, how much time did the victims of bear attacks have to attempt deterrent action, either firearm or bear spray? What were the actual weather conditions? How experienced was the human?

Absent a plethora of video evidence, one simply cannot say, "It's pretty well proven..."

Go ahead, rely solely on bear spray.

http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/8/firearm-vs-bear-spray
 
It's pretty well proven that spray is more effective. Bears have extremely sensitive eyes and noses and a whiff of that stuff will make them get out of dodge. Anywhere else and their pain tolerance is through the roof so unless you get lucky by hitting a bouncing target the size of a tennis ball and drop it in it's tracks you're probably going to get torn apart.
Like I said one in the ground and if it don't turnaround ,empty the wheel . Saw a hiker once on TV who used spray ,I'll stick with LEAD .

Reminds me of the LEO who gave a demonstration of Taser stopping power ,worked really good up until it DIDN'T .

They neglected to account for a dope head with a jacket on ,nearly killed one officer before #4 more got a handle on the 6'2" 245 lb. whatever drug he was on crazy . Just ask MY nephew who's a captain with a major metropolitan Sheriff's Dept. ,what he thinks of Tasers ,after he stops laughing !. :rofl:
 
Like I said one in the ground and if it don't turnaround ,empty the wheel . Saw a hiker once on TV who used spray ,I'll stick with LEAD .

Reminds me of the LEO who gave a demonstration of Taser stopping power ,worked really good up until it DIDN'T .

They neglected to account for a dope head with a jacket on ,nearly killed one officer before #4 more got a handle on the 6'2" 245 lb. whatever drug he was on crazy . Just ask MY nephew who's a captain with a major metropolitan Sheriff's Dept. ,what he thinks of Tasers ,after he stops laughing !. :rofl:

Tasers have a fairly poor track record that's well documented but for human interactions it's not an either/or between gun or taser. Both are very separate tools and not interchangeable. If the taser doesn't work you transition to another non lethal option.

I've lived in bear country most of my life and found spray very effective. Lead works too but I've met very few people who can shoot a big bore handgun fast enough and accurately enough to hit such a small moving target. Not an easy shot to practice for either.
 
Just ask MY nephew who's a captain with a major metropolitan Sheriff's Dept. ,what he thinks of Tasers ,after he stops laughing !.
Well, a captain, especially in a major metropolitan law enforcement agency, is an administrator, and in my experience, most folks who aspire to promote past sergeant don't have much in the way of recent patrol experience on the streets, so I take the opinions of anyone higher than a lieutenant with a grain of salt. Of course, I was an Axon-certified TASER instructor, and of any less-lethal devices in our inventory, I'd prefer a TASER over OC every day of the week (at least on anyone not wearing a puffy jacket, snowmobile suit or dressed for elk season. TASERs work quite well in Southern California, Florida, Arizona, for example... and in prisons.

The "documented failure rate of the TASER" is very misleading. TASERs do fail, regularly, but it's not the device itself, it's a failure of the application. Unless you've been out on the streets fighting, you don't know the effects of adrenaline, fear, extreme physical movements, rapidly evolving situations and fatigue, so getting the darts to deploy correctly (solved with the last couple versions with good laser) and hit the right muscle groups with good spacing is the challenge. Also, before going out on patrol/shift, you need to verify your device is charged -- I cannot tell you how many times I've seen officers fail to do this. Or that the cartridge(s) are probably loaded.

One of my old course books had this blurb: Analyzed 504 use-of-force incidents in large police agency wherein OC spray or TASER energy weapons were used, and found TASER energy weapons were substantially more effective than OC spray, with energy weapons effective 90.2% of the time and OC spray effective only 73.8% of the time.

Never had to use bear spray on an actual bear, but having used OC on multiple (maybe 30 or 40) occasions over the years, I've seen OC be quite effective on human subjects (especially on me).

My point is, there are probably no good ways to quantify the effectiveness of some of these devices because every situation is different and there are so many variables and external, environmental factors that come in to play. However, the new devices have nice, downloadable event logs and video, so the evidence should be building up.

The only thing we ever worried about is how we're gonna write up the use-of-force reports and whether we get to the end of watch and can go home with no one getting seriously injured or killed.
 
Tasers have a fairly poor track record that's well documented but for human interactions
Tasers are really not on topic here. A taser is compliance tool for law enforcement, and it is nota practical less lethal means fore civilian self defense.
 
Back
Top