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Carry Ammo

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T

The Kidd

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I can't find an appropriate spot to post this so I'll open a new one. I carry a Llama Mini-Max .45 ACP. (The FACT that this is an absolutly reliable firearm is not open to discussion.) My question is would it be better to carry 230 gr ball-vs- for example, 185 gr Silvertip given the decreased velocity of the short bbl? The pistol will shoot whatever I load, I am concerned about 'adequate' penetration. I guess it is OK if the hollow point doesn't expand as long as it gets deep enough to hit vitals. I hope I never have to shoot another human, but if I do then I want them to STAY shot. Thanks for a wonderful site.
 
The general concensus is that the shorter the barrel, the lighter the bullet weight needs to be to insure proper expansion. However, I contend that a .45" bullet, even unexpanded, is still plenty damaging and not something I would like to be the recipient of.

Remember, a 9mm might expand, but a 45 never shrinks. Carry what feeds reliably and shoots accurately.
 
There is a school of thought that says that a 230 grain bullet is fully capable of doing the job, regardless of velocity. We are well aware that some .45 loads are only in the 700+ fps range in full length barrels but I can only guess at the velocity from a short barrel.

The question is: at what level does this slow bullet not meet the objective? If it is efficient at 750 fps, is 500 fps acceptable? Will it perform at 300 fps?

I am constantly told that velocity is not an important component of stopping power but I don't believe it for a moment. I use Remington Golden Saber 185 grain +P loads in my 3.5 inch barrel Para Ordnance and my Pact Pro chrono says they are just nudging 1050 fps.

I will depend upon that.
 
I'd take the 185 grain. The 230 might not be fast enough(if the .45ACP can be called fast) to be worth the extra mass.
 
This right here is in my opinion the gold standard for use in shorty 45s:

http://www.gunblast.com/PowRBall.htm

The 185 Gold Dots have promise too, but don't have the extremely reliable feeding characteristics of those, nor are they "clog-proof" like Cor-Bon's answer. Cor-Bon is promising to phase out JHPs completely in favor of this concept, and I think that's a good idea.

We've had well documented cases of expansion failure of even the best 230 JHPs in 3"/3.5" barrel lengths. One such happened to a THR member, the "National shooting club" incident in San Jose, California. A really nasty perp was stopped via multiple shots well placed, but still lived and if he'd had the *will* to fight while wounded, could have. The guy who successfully defended now runs something else in the same gun.
 
I use Winchester White Box 230 JHP's in both my 5" and 3" Kimber. They feed reliably....and that's what I want.

bc:)
 
I use 230gr FMJ in all my 1911s. I've shot HP in them and they all functioned, but I don't want to take the chance and if 7 .45in projectiles at 25 feet or less can't neutralize a threat, then I doubt that hollow points would do me any better.
 
I've got to side with Jim March here and recommend the Corbon PowRballs!! After testing for reliability and accuracy, I've now switched all my carry guns over to this ammo. It's really good stuff and IMHO, a much better choice than the Hydrashoks I've carried since they made it so difficult to get Black Talons. There have been several studies done that showed less than acceptable expansion with the Hydrashoks and while I'm no expert on the subject, I have my doubts and that's enough for me to want to switch. The Federal "Expanding Full Metal Jacket" also looks promising, though I have not tried them. There are some very impressive results posted at the Ammolab.

Http://www.AmmoLab.com

When I can get a 165 grain bullet to exit the muzzle of my little 3 inch Kimber and Para P-10 at over 1000 fps, I'm a happy camper :) Just another Old Marine's opinion...;)

Semper Fi, Sgt
 
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The Gold Dot projectile is very good, probably the best JHP design today, and is what Proload uses exclusively. In a 5" barrel, the 230 is possibly a better bet than the Cor-Bon because the extra weight does come in handy for some tasks.

The Gold Dots have a major advantage in carbines as they strongly resist "being driven too fast and coming apart" - the bond between the lead core and the copper jacket is the very best in the industry. In a pistol-caliber long gun, Gold Dots are THE choice, period, end of discussion.

However.

It's a "delayed expansion" round to get a "deeper punch". Which means it needs velocity to expand well, and in a 3.5" or so barrel I would question whether you'll get the velocity it needs (in 45ACP). This issue is why Proload also offers the 185grain Gold Dot 45ACP.

BUT, the 185 Gold Dot doesn't offer a significant weight advantage over the Pow'R'Ball and that latter has MAJOR advantages in both feeding and expansion. At 165grains, it's down in weight.

Upshot:

3" barrel gun, Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball. Period.

4" gun, I think I'd still go Pow'R'Ball, unless my gun shot a LOT more accurately with 185 Gold Dots (Proload is the best of the Gold Dot suppliers, Georgia Arms almost as good (and cheap if you want to shoot 'em in practice), Speer themselves are in last place oddly enough (but they're still OK).

5" barrel: Gold Dot 230 by a nose, unless the gun had feed issues, in which case the Pow'R'Ball's "roundnose profile" wins. Gold Dots aren't *bad* for feeding, they're quite good among JHPs, but the Cor-Bon answer rocks.

Longer barrel, esp. carbine: GOLD DOT 230 above all others.
 
I carry 230g FMJs in all my 1911s, regardless of barrel length.

That applies to guns that will reliably feed JHPs.

I absolutely do NOT want a jam if i need the gun, and would much rather trade off potential expansion (which is arguably unnecessary in the first place) for potential increased reliability.
 
Hold up a Pow'R'Ball to an FMJ. Compare the shape.

Identical. No BS.

There is NO longer any need to "stick with FMJ for feed reliability".

None. Zero. Nada. Zip.

:)
 
.45 never shrinks...

Remember, a 9mm might expand, but a 45 never shrinks. Carry what feeds reliably and shoots accurately.
Click to expand...
,I want to start carrying a .45 at work in a year or so.
my GF wants a ring b4 I get anymore guns:rolleyes:
they are great guns... I might have to get sneaky...;)
 
Ammolab tested the Pow'R'Ball in a 5" barrel:

http://www.ammolab.com/corbon_prb_45.htm

These tests show wonderful and stable expansion. The rounds appear to be "close to the edge" of going too fast, as the jacket is just starting to come unglued around the edges.

That's good, because it implies they'll do just fine out of shorter tubes down to 3", which matches other test results. They're still doing OK at 5" but if shot out of a 7.5" Ruger SA with a 45ACP cylinder, I'll bet you'll see 'em come unglued. In a carbine, definately.

---------

They also test some Black Hills ammo:

http://www.ammolab.com/bh_45acp.htm

One of the 185grain Gold Dots "clogged up" in the denim-clad test and failed to expand.

The 230 Gold Dots all worked well, denim or not. Exactly what I'd expect from a 5" tube. The 230 XTPs didn't do well at all - I think they're not running fast enough, as the XTP is really a hunting load. Load it in a 45LC case and run it up around 1,100 - 1,200+ and it'll do better BUT even then, a Gold Dot at the same speed will still hang together so I'd rather run those.

---------

Here's ammolab's "general 45ACP smorgasboard" test:

http://www.ammolab.com/45acp_1.htm

Note how the old Cor-bon 165grain JHP came catastrophically unglued in a 5" barrel (test 16) and did poor penetration. THAT is what I mean by "going too fast" - that load was meant for 3" or 3.5" tubes. The Pow'R'Ball is clearly a major improvement as it's still (barely) holding at 5".
 
Quote "I want to start carrying a .45 at work in a year or so.
my GF wants a ring b4 I get anymore guns
they are great guns... I might have to get sneaky..."

My suggestion would be to get a new girlfriend ;)

Semper Fi, Sgt
 
RBCD has a new Tactical load at over 2300 fps and 1000 fpe, BUT it can only be fired in a supported chamber. The load is standard pressure, but it maintains the high pressure over a longer period. The standard line is 1600-2000 fps depending on bullet weight. Nice SP profile as well.
 
Lone_Gunman:

Well...ya, it's a bit on the light side, but then again everybody considers 158 in a 357 "heavy". Right, sectional density but...given they're gonna expand regardless, sectional density is gonna change a heck of a lot, right?

I think 165 grains moving fast enough is gonna have some punch. Jeez, that weight is considered "on the heavy side" for 40S&W and it's only 1/5th smaller...

The *shortest* penetration Ammolabs got on the gel testing was 12". Clothed tests ran about an inch or a bit more deeper. That's from a 5"; from a 3", guesstimate around 10? Maybe even 9 worst case?

You know what? I'll take 9" worth of expanded round versus blowing clean through with ball.

Jeff OTMG:

The Ammolabs tests seemed to show that you're basically throwing a lead ball at crazy-fast speeds, plus some scrap metal "extras" from the jacket.

Now, that's not necessarily bad. Back in the percussion days, true round ball was known as a man-killer, although with poor long-range flight. At close ranges, even in 36cal it'd mess people up, and that was at speeds around 800 - 900fps.

But was there supposed to be some other result? Should the "lead balls" have broken up?

What's the current specs on 357Magnum RBCD?
 
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