Carrying a firearm without CCW? (MN)

[RoostRider]

Was just wondering what the legalities were of carrying a handgun, unloaded, in a case, on your person, while walking around in St Paul Minnesota. (in particular, in a fanny pack with the amunition in a separate pocket of same said fanny pack, or in pants pocket. The fanny pack clipped on.)

I believe this would be completely legal, with or without a CCW permit. But I would like to know for sure.

Also, would there be 'extra hassles' to deal with if you were forced to use said handgun? IE- would just uncaseing/loading/and or firing it be a violation of the law, provided you were in fear for your life/safety at the time?

My neighborhood is getting ugly. Minnesota has "shall issue" CCW regulations, but I have not had time to get the classes yet and I prefer to be protected NOW. At the same time, I don't want to be in violation of the law, especially if I were forced to use it... either by drawing or firing....

Can anyone direct me to the laws (local, federal, and or state) that would govern this.... and give me a synapse of what the jargon really means?

Thanks

 

[akodo]

http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/index.php?sid=180c82ef25e85fdb4d2a8b2e2ebd7a88

ask on that MN board and you will have a better chance of a good answer.

I personally suspect that such a setup will result in a night in jail even if you are able to prove it is not legally barred later. Of course, a night in jail is better than dead, so while you wait for your permit, I suggest avoiding any situation where this might ever come up. So drive 57 in the 55MPH zone, not 63, wave nice and appologize not give the driver the finger, etc etc.

 

[kingpin008]

Sign up for the classes, get the permit and do it right. Be happy you live in a Shall Issue state.

Seriously - if you needed a gun to defend your life in a violent altercation, you'd have to be Superman to be able to render your gun useable from the mode of carry you describe, especially if you're doing it in a hurry. And even if you were able to successfully uncase it, retrieve the ammo, load the mags, and make the weapon ready in time to deploy it against a threat, you'd very likely face criminal charges for carrying it without a permit in the first place. You have to realize, that even though the way you describe may be totally legal when transporting a friearm to a range or shooting event, when transporting with the specific intent to be utilized as a defensive weapon (like in a self-defense situation) that legality generally goes out the window.

And forget about the court case where you'll have to explain how you were in fear enough of your life to have to use a gun yet had the time to assemble a properly working weapon from all the component parts you were carrying rather than attempting to escape the area.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It's illegal under Minnesota law. Unless you could prove you were taking the gun to one of the excepted places in subsection 9. The law makes no exception for carrying the gun "cased and unloaded" except for transport in a vehicle:

The MN Statute is here:
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=624.714

624.714 CARRYING OF WEAPONS WITHOUT PERMIT; PENALTIES.
Subdivision 1.[Repealed, 2003 c 28 art 2 s 35; 2005 c 83 s 1]
Subd. 1a. Permit required; penalty. A person, other than a peace officer, as defined in
section 626.84, subdivision 1, who carries, holds, or possesses a pistol in a motor vehicle, snowmobile, or boat, or on or about the person's clothes or the person, or otherwise in possession or control in a public place, as defined in section 624.7181, subdivision 1, paragraph (c), without first having obtained a permit to carry the pistol is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person who is convicted a second or subsequent time is guilty of a felony.

Subd. 9. Carrying pistols about one's premises or for purposes of repair, target practice.
A permit to carry is not required of a person:
(a) to keep or carry about the person's place of business, dwelling house, premises or on
land possessed by the person a pistol;
(b) to carry a pistol from a place of purchase to the person's dwelling house or place of
business, or from the person's dwelling house or place of business to or from a place where repairing is done, to have the pistol repaired;
(c) to carry a pistol between the person's dwelling house and place of business;
(d) to carry a pistol in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this state for the purpose of hunting or of target shooting in a safe area; or
(e) to transport a pistol in a motor vehicle, snowmobile or boat if the pistol is unloaded,
contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, or securely tied package.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Your best bet, before you get the carry permit, would be to carry a cap and ball (black powder) revolver in a holster. But, I would bet if you carried it loaded, the man would say that you were not carrying it as a curiosity any more and you would be screwed.

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=624.715

624.715 EXEMPTIONS; ANTIQUES AND ORNAMENTS.
Sections 624.713 and 624.714 shall not apply to antique firearms which are carried or
possessed as curiosities or for their historical significance or value.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You can, however, carry a rifle or shotgun in a case made specifically for the carry of the gun:

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=624.7181

624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.
Subdivision 1. Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms have the
meanings given them.
(a) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in
diameter.
(b) "Carry" does not include:
(1) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun to, from, or at a place where firearms are
repaired, bought, sold, traded, or displayed, or where hunting, target shooting, or other lawful activity involving firearms occurs, or at funerals, parades, or other lawful ceremonies;
(2) the carrying by a person of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun that is unloaded and in a gun
case expressly made to contain a firearm, if the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and no portion of the firearm is exposed;
(3) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section
624.714;
(4) the carrying of an antique firearm as a curiosity or for its historical significance or
value; or
(5) the transporting of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun in compliance with section 97B.045.
(c) "Public place" means property owned, leased, or controlled by a governmental unit and
private property that is regularly and frequently open to or made available for use by the public in sufficient numbers to give clear notice of the property's current dedication to public use but does not include: a person's dwelling house or premises, the place of business owned or managed by the person, or land possessed by the person; a gun show, gun shop, or hunting or target shooting facility; or the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms.
Subd. 2. Penalties. Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person under the age of 21 who carries a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, as defined in section 624.712, subdivision 7, on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a felony.

 

[RoostRider]

I don't believe Minnesota requires you to retreat.... and quite frankly, I had the opportunity arise only a couple nights ago where the perp was threatening to kill me and coming down the block towards me... I had time to go into my house and get my gun and come back out... the perp was just leaving (being hauled away by his more reasonable friends) when I got back out.... had my gun been closer, he would have been confronted with it before he reached my yard, had he continued, I would likely have plugged him.... my house was burglarized while I was home several months ago, I had time to beat the guy silly and then go get my gun and he was still around close enough to be a legitimate threat to the safety of my household (as determined by the police after the shooting) and he was outside my yard... so you can't make me believe that there is never time to load a gun when you are in fear for your life.... there often is.... not only that, I am allowed to defend the lives of others as well (which could easily allow me time to make ready my weapon).

I understand that it is far less than ideal to have the gun unloaded in a self defense situation, but I would rather have the gun close by than in my house.... who could argue that closer to you is worse?

Sounds to me though, like the law might be against me on this one (since I would not be on my way hunting or to the range/shop). In which case I have to mitigate this all with the knowledge that I could get in trouble even if I didn't pull it out (routine stop or something similar), and probably would have some "extra mess" to deal with if I did have to use it.

Thanks for all the useful input.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Also, would there be 'extra hassles' to deal with if you were forced to use said handgun?

Ya, the hassle of getting the BG to wait long enough for you to load it.

Carrying an unloaded gun for "personal protection" is just stupid. Unless you live in a "victims R us" state, your a felon, or mentally unbalanced, a CCW permit just isn't all -that- hard to get.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I had time to go into my house and get my gun and come back out...

And =now= I believe you have entered the realm of "mutual combat", and the self defense and castle doctrine statues no longer apply. You can't retreat, grab a weapon, come back and =then= claim self defense.

If you went to your house, closed the door (don't have to lock it), armed yourself and he followed you in, different story.

 

[Pat Cannon]

Even assuming that this would be legal, do you think the police, the prosecutor, or the judge will take your word for it that your weapon wasn't loaded?

Check out the Twin Cities Carry and Minnesota Gun Talk forums, pick an instructor, sign up for a class, get your permit. Make the time.

P.S. When you do, I believe your instructor will tell you that there is a duty to retreat here in Minnesota, unless you're at home. I believe they'll also tell you that going into the house, getting your gun, and coming back out is a really bad move. If the 'perp' is getting dragged away by his buddies, there's no need for you to be out there. If not, and he kicks in your door, then you're on way better legal ground than if you're out on your steps when you put him down.

 

[RoostRider]

mgkdrgn and others who argue I was in the wrong, you are jumping to conclusions... this perp was approaching my property and my GF at the time... I was in no way required to "run away" from this situation.... not in this state... (To clarify- I was unaware until I returned to my yard, well armed, that his buddies were dragging him away.. at that point I let the cops deal with it)

As noted, I have been in similar circumstances before. The cops didn't even contemplate taking me in.... in fact, I got a lot of praise from them... they took my weapon as a matter of course, and returned it to me after running it, and me running through some hoops.... they left me with all of my other guns and never even looked at them....

I have been in several circumstances where there was plenty of time to load a weapon, yet was still in legitimate fear of injury or being assailed with death threats.... again, good luck convincing me there is never time to load your weapon, because I have been there, done that.... you're just plain wrong....

 

[kingpin008]

I had time to go into my house and get my gun and come back out...

That's no longer self defense, that's looking for a confrontation. IMHO, it should be the responsibility of all individuals, especially gun owners to do everything they can to avoid confrontation. That way, not only do you help to preserve yourself through avoidance, you protect yourself legally should you be forced to use deadly force in defense of yourself or others.

In the situation you described above, you were safe in your house but made the decision to return with a firearm (which creates a disparity of force, and is also considered and escalation of force/conflict) to confront an individual who, to your knowledge was not armed and was alone. That's not something a reasonable person does, and will not be looked upon kindly in a court.

In all reality, you're lucky as hell the guy who was threatening you (and his friends who ended up dragging him off) didn't call the police and report you for menacing them with a gun. All they've got to do is dial up, and explain how they were having a discussion with a guy on the street, who then became irate and left the scene only to return with a gun. And because you chose to leave the (relative) safety of your house and continue the situation rather than calling them yourself, you'll have to deal with the hassle of explaining to a few understandably uptight officers why you did what you did.

 

[kingpin008]

To clarify- I was unaware until I returned to my yard, well armed, that his buddies were dragging him away..

I think you're missing the point on this - whether or not you were aware that his friends were taking him away, you still escalated the situation by leaving the safety of your home with a gun.

The thing about self-defense shootings, is that they should be done in self defense. In your story, you had removed yourself from the situation, and were safe in your house. There was no problem. You had at least one locked door between you and your aggressor. Instead, you continued the fight, and put yourself back into an unknown and potentially dangerous situation, armed with a gun. Think about that for a second, and not even in the context of defending yourself in a court of law. Think about how unnecessary and dangerous your actions were, and how they could have ended up - and then come back and tell us how good of an idea it was.

 

[mgkdrgn]

mgkdrgn and others who argue I was in the wrong, you are jumping to conclusions... this perp was approaching my property and my GF at the time... I was in no way required to "run away" from this situation.... not in this state... (To clarify- I was unaware until I returned to my yard, well armed, that his buddies were dragging him away.. at that point I let the cops deal with it)

As noted, I have been in similar circumstances before. The cops didn't even contemplate taking me in.... in fact, I got a lot of praise from them... they took my weapon as a matter of course, and returned it to me after running it, and me running through some hoops.... they left me with all of my other guns and never even looked at them....

I have been in several circumstances where there was plenty of time to load a weapon, yet was still in legitimate fear of injury or being assailed with death threats.... again, good luck convincing me there is never time to load your weapon, because I have been there, done that.... you're just plain wrong....

You may continue to believe what ever you like. If you leave the scene, get a gun, and RETURN to the scene to confront someone it is not self defense, it's mutual combat. If you had actually shot anyone that night you would have learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[Rmeju]

When I started this thread, I was going to tell you that if you wanted to be legally armed NOW, then you should make time for the class NOW. That or apply for the emergency permit.

I don't know the particulars of your situation, but it seems to me that based on what's been written here that I am no longer sure I want you to be marked in the 'bad shoot with a legal CCW' column the next time you shoot someone.

I understand wanting to defend your home. I do. But I'm having a very difficult time imagining a scenario where in the eyes of the law of MN what you just described would be kosher. I know the cops patted you on the back, but they're not lawyers, and they get that sort of crap wrong all the time.

Go inside. Get you gun. Obviously the cops had been called. Kudos, up to that point, I'm right there with you. But why not stay inside? I'm assuming your GF wasn't tethered to a tree out in the danger zone or anything, right?

Nothing personal... it's just those numbnuts antis are always on the prowl to cite that sort of thing.

Rmeju

 

[rallyhound]

I don't believe for a second that there is some magical benefit to being inside your house. If I am threatened or attacked I will choose the position that seems to benefit me the most.

If I have children or loved ones inside that house I will not let the aggressor get anywhere near it.

By going outside he probably was able to better view and assess the bad guys behavior as well as keep more distance from the aggressor.

I live in a small house. If I am hiding in my house the bad guy can easily get within 8-10 of me and I probably will not be able to see him.

He could easily get through one of my single pane windows or, if armed, fire an easy shot from that distance.

I'll make my stand outside if it helps to protect my family.

 

[Soldiersurfs]

the perp was threatening to kill me and coming down the block towards me... I had time to go into my house and get my gun and come back out... the perp was just leaving (being hauled away by his more reasonable friends) when I got back out.... had my gun been closer, he would have been confronted with it before he reached my yard, had he continued, I would likely have plugged him..

While you might not have to retreat , you certainly cant retreat and then return.
Did you call the police while getting the gun? While you might find your stance on self defense right ........ its pretty hard to protect your family while doing time for manslaughter.

 

[mgregg85]

The only concern I would have is if you are doing something illegal and get caught, you won't ever be able to get a CCW permit.

 

[Frog48]

in a fanny pack with the amunition in a separate pocket of same said fanny pack, or in pants pocket

Even if legal, its still a BAD idea. An unloaded gun is worthless.

And this gentleman raises a very good point:

you'll have to explain how you were in fear enough of your life to have to use a gun yet had the time to assemble a properly working weapon from all the component parts you were carrying rather than attempting to escape the area.

 

[NavyLCDR]

How did this thread get so far off topic. First, it is in the Legal section, not the Strategies and Tactics second. Second, OP did not ask if it was a good idea or not, he asked if it was legal or not. The answer to that question is simple, it is NOT legal in Minnesota to carry a handgun even unloaded and in a case, outside of a vehicle for self defense, without a permit.

HOWEVER, since we are discussing retreat, I think the OP does have the duty to retreat -- To retreat to a free and relatively safe state like Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, where he can carry his loaded self-defense gun openly and probably never in a lifetime have to actually use it in self-defense!

Now, if I could just take this dang magazine out of my pocket and put it in my gun where it belongs here in Baghdad.... dang Army rules..... :banghead:

 

[mnrivrat]

MN law requires retreat when possible .

MN law also does not allow carry in the manner you discribe

Classes are available on a regular basis and you should schedule yourself for one asap if you want to carry.

 

[NavyLCDR]

MN law requires retreat when possible .

Could you please post the cite to the MN law that requires that? I can't find it in the MN statutes. Nowhere in the below quoted statues do I see a duty to retreat requirement. Although, I guess since MN does not have a stand your ground law, it could be argued that if retreat was available, than it would no longer be "necessary" to resist, but I still do not see a "duty" to retreat.

609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.
The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.

609.06 AUTHORIZED USE OF FORCE.
Subdivision 1. When authorized. Except as otherwise provided in subdivision 2, reasonable force may be used upon or toward the person of another without the other's consent when the following circumstances exist or the actor reasonably believes them to exist:
(1) when used by a public officer or one assisting a public officer under the public officer's direction:
(a) in effecting a lawful arrest; or
(b) in the execution of legal process; or
(c) in enforcing an order of the court; or
(d) in executing any other duty imposed upon the public officer by law; or
(2) when used by a person not a public officer in arresting another in the cases and in the manner provided by law and delivering the other to an officer competent to receive the other into custody; or
(3) when used by any person in resisting or aiding another to resist an offense against the person; or
(4) when used by any person in lawful possession of real or personal property, or by another assisting the person in lawful possession, in resisting a trespass upon or other unlawful interference with such property; or
(5) when used by any person to prevent the escape, or to retake following the escape, of a person lawfully held on a charge or conviction of a crime; or
(6) when used by a parent, guardian, teacher, or other lawful custodian of a child or pupil, in the exercise of lawful authority, to restrain or correct such child or pupil; or
(7) when used by a school employee or school bus driver, in the exercise of lawful authority, to restrain a child or pupil, or to prevent bodily harm or death to another; or
(8) when used by a common carrier in expelling a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful requirement for the conduct of passengers and reasonable care is exercised with regard to the passenger's personal safety; or
(9) when used to restrain a person who is mentally ill or mentally defective from self-injury or injury to another or when used by one with authority to do so to compel compliance with reasonable requirements for the person's control, conduct, or treatment; or
(10) when used by a public or private institution providing custody or treatment against one lawfully committed to it to compel compliance with reasonable requirements for the control, conduct, or treatment of the committed person.
Subd. 2. Deadly force used against peace officers. Deadly force may not be used against peace officers who have announced their presence and are performing official duties at a location where a person is committing a crime or an act that would be a crime if committed by an adult.

 

[phorvick]

It was asked: "Could you please post the cite to the MN law that requires that? I can't find it in the MN statutes. Nowhere in the below quoted statues do I see a duty to retreat requirement. Although, I guess since MN does not have a stand your ground law, it could be argued that if retreat was available, than it would no longer be "necessary" to resist, but I still do not see a "duty" to retreat."

Well, you won't find the duty codified in the statutes. However, it is well established case law in Minnesota that outside your home you have an affirmative duty to retreat if safe to do.

It should be clear, but often is not to the non-lawyer, that you cannot depend solely on the written statutes to base your actions and strategies. One must also research case law that expands or explains the written word.

 

[NavyLCDR]

you cannot depend solely on the written statutes to base your actions and strategies.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

 

[mnrivrat]

Could you please post the cite to the MN law that requires that?

This was covered in the CCW training class I took here - soon as I get a chance I will dig for more info. and post it.

Edit: Previous poster may be correct in that is established by case law, but again I will continue with some additional research .

FYI : Case Law File No. K39743 MN vs Carothers is one such case where the court indicates a duty to retreat even within your own home.