Caseless ammo, could it be a solution to rising ammo costs?

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PercyShelley

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I'm fairly sure that most of us know what caseless ammunition is; but just in case I'll recap.

Caseless ammunition are rounds that lack a brass jacket around the propellant. The propellant itself is held together with a binding agent, which gives it adequate stiffness to feed into the action. Imagine gluing a musket ball to a bib blob of powder, and then doing the same thing with modern materials.

http://www.caselessammunition.com/


The company above claims that they can manufacture caseless ammunition with very similar ballistic performance to NATO standard ammunition at half the cost. Obviously it won't function in the same rifles, but once you get the new rifle, you ought to start seeing the savings right?

Centerfire plinking would no longer be dependant upon surplus quantities of ammunition, and since a caseless round has fewer ingredients than a cased round, price might remain more stable. A fluctuation in the availibility of brass alloys or primer compounds, for example, wouldn't affect ammo pricing.

On the other hand, I forsee potential problems.

Caseless ammunition technology has been around a while, and it hasn't caught on yet. The firearms need to be manufactured to tighter tolerances, since there's no brass case to prevent gas leaks. There also needs to be some mechanism to prevent ammo cookoff, since the ejecting brass is a very good way to dump heat.

These are not insurmountable engineering problems, but engineers don't work for free. Ammo savings might be offset by the increased price of the guns.

There is also the issue that introducing a caseless gun would necessarily involve introducing a new type of ammo. As we all know, new chamberings don't always catch on.

There's the political angle.

Back when Voere introduced a caseless rifle on a very limited basis, the VPC went ape, claiming it would allow assasins to kill without leaving behind any brass to trace them with. Why assasins don't just pick up their brass is a secret known only to the VPC. The fact that gun control groups have opposed caseless guns in the past, however, shows that their future introduction might not go unopposed.

Handloading would probably still exist; making a home setup for compressing propellant grains and bullets together isn't that technically daunting. Handloading probably wouldn't be cheaper than factory loads, however, as one would no longer be re-using old components, and a home hand-loader would probably not be able to compete with the economy of scale factories can offer. If the ammo remained half the price of the equivalent cased rounds, this probably wouldn't be a huge drawback.
So, when it comes down to it, the central question is whether half-priced ammo that (hopefully) doesn't get more expensive over time is worth getting new rifles.


So, would it be worth it?

Other thoughts?
 
Getting caseless ammo to meet environmental qual (temperature, water, salt fog, vibe/shock) is very very hard.
 
That old 19th century brass case turns out to be way more useful than we realized. It keeps the chamber clean and, more importantly, it soaks up a huge amount of heat and pulls it from the chamber. Firearms with caseless ammo have had enormous problems overcoming these issues. Plus, the tighter tolerances mean a jam anytime the residue builds up.
 
you can reap a substantial savings already by just picking up the old 19th century brass case and reloading it, without R&Ding and T&Eing and then buying a whole new gun.

Mike
 
What we really need is a liquid propellant that can be filled in a two part mixture in the stock and injected into the chamber and ignited to create the desired PSI. Then bullets can be loaded like BB's, with no cases at all.
 
Actually the G11 I believe failed due to cook off issues.

And the liquid propellant thing has been done... upto 120MM guns...
 
what we need is a Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt range. ;)

i dont believe caseless ammo is a solution. however, alternate case material could be
 
rbernie nailed it.
These rounds don't hold up in combat environments. I have no trust in whether a pallet of caseless will survive after being kicked out the back of a C-130. I have not seen or heard of environemntal testing where the resistance of the propellant to common fluids such as diesel, automotive gasoline, aviation fuel, cleaning solvents, ammonia, etc -I'd expect breakdown of the binder after a short time.
 
It's been tried before, without much success

"In 1968 Daisy, brought out a really strange gun. It was a .22 that fired caseless ammunition, which was ignited by the adiabatic heat of a conventional spring-piston airgun powerplant. That's right, a pellet rifle that shot a 40-grain lead bullet at 1100 f.p.s. It was a firearm, of course; but, because Daisy built it, it had a plastic stock. The Daisy VL was never popular with anyone, and they're still sluggish on the used market today. By the way, if you're wondering if one could be used as a spring-piston air rifle - you can forget it. The bore is sized for the standard .22 rimfire caliber of 0.222"-0.223" instead of the airgun size of 0.218." Pellets shoot at 300 f.p.s. or less because of the excessive blowby. Daisy ceased selling the gun in 1969."
 
I doubt it, shooters are just too traditional, especially with something like rimfire ammo which is almost like a cult.

Phasers have more of a chance, occupying a totally different niche than firearms.
 
The flintlock was caseless. :D

If they could show it was reliable, I wouldn't mind trying it, but in the mean time, I'll just keep competing with everyone else for the resources.
 
I still have some...

.38 special ammo made in circa 1983 that has a white plastic case, standard primer, and 158 copper jacket slug.

They came in sleeves of 6 rounds. I bought one sleeve as a novelty and never fired them.
 
Actually, I've been thinking about this. My idea isn't caseless (sorry for getting off topic), but instead of using gunpowder, the cartridge would use CO2 as a propellant (No, not using those 12 grams, but it'd look like a normal cartridge- the CO2 would be in the powder space). I'm still thinking of how it would work, but the obvious advantage would be no powder residue, ever. Plus, one could just simply reload the shell with CO2 instead of a primer and powder. The pressue can be the scale of how much power the round produces.
 
Good points on the environmental resilliance of caseless rounds.

On a related note, you would think that caseless wouldn't hold up to srping pressures in magazines as well as cased ammo. How were the rounds in the G11 prevented from deforming?

kcmarine, the problem with using CO2 as a propellant is that is has rather large molecules with a rather low speed of sound. The speed of sound of the working gas is the limit on bullet velocity in any gun. If you would be comfortable limiting your gun to subsonic velocities, it might work fine.

I also recall reading about guns with liquid propellants. IIRC, the crusader SPG was supposed to have one of those during the early mockup stages.

One problem I recall hearing about was a somewhat unpredictable pressure curve.
 
The problem with caseless is the powder. Maybe they could invent some type of synthetic plastic explosive to use as the propellant?
 
There are two problems with compressed gas. First, there is the pressure. A .223 Remington round, for example, has a chamber pressure of about 50000 psi. That's a lot of pressure to be toting around in the form of a compressed gas.

The second is that what's keeping the bullet in place?
 
In figuring out a new propellant, you have to realize how it works. Doubleg mentioned a plastic explosive, which detonated. This is the same principal as black powder. These propel an object by the initial concussive shock of the detonation. They create lower breach pressures and little gas pressure. The problem is once the initial detonation, there is nothing acting on the projectile as it travels through the barrel. In essence, it's already slowing down bofore it reached the crown.

In nitro cellulose, it deflegrates, or burns. Smokeless powder will NEVER explode. By its design, the rapidly burning powder creates tremendous gas pressures that push the projectile until it exits the barrel. Its the same principal as a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion), only instead of a boiling liquid, its a burning powder.
 
The biggest question regarding caseless is not technical but financial [tho technical is nothing to sneeze at]. What major manufacturer would risk the cash to front such venture given the recent history of this product? I think none.

Whammy #2: it has to be successsful at two levels. Guns & ammo. Could you ask for higher risk? It's not even clear to me the short mags have a future, let alone something like caseless. Even if ammo prices double or triple, caseless ain't the answer.

Think not....one word...Etronix. The whole industry must have noticed the outcome of that little adventure outside the box.

JMHO

S-
 
Gun engineering is one of the most conservative branches of engineering in the world. If you opened the hood on a car made this year and hadn't popped a hood in three decades, you would be floored by the shear amount of stuff under there.

On the other hand, if you opened up a completely new model of gun, it wouldn't be too long before you figured out what everything does. Modern and respected manufacturers still make use of century old actions. Truly, firearms are a mature technology.

Since the general consensus here is that the most popular caseless firearms of the 21st century will be muskets (an opinion which has been well backed), I can only wonder what if any changes in technology will be seen. New case materials were mentioned a few times as a way to reduce cost, as there does seem to be some precedent for plastic rounds.


Trempel:
The real problem is how do you reload a caseless round?

You don't but you probably could handload one. The home handloader would simply select propellant and projectiles, compress the propellant together than attach the projectile to it. There would be no re-use of any components, but the potential savings come from the fact that those components were eliminated in the first place.


CypherNinja:
I've heard that much fun can be had with a PCP airgun and a tank of helium.

Now that I have got to try.
 
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