Cause of semi auto not cycling?

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ChasMack

ChasMack

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I just reloaded a few rounds of 9mm. My first time at the 9mm and I was going by the Lee Reloading manual. I used a single stage press to get started with until I came up with a few decent loads. I used the Lee dipper, 5cc that equals 4.2 grains of IMR 700X, the low end of the chart. I loaded 115gr fmj. I put 5 in my 1911 and 5 in my Glock 17. None of the bullets cycled the slide in either gun. All I can say is that they were accurate out of the G17. Is the cause for the slide not cycling because of too light a charge?? I have never had that happen before, but then I have only reloaded for revolvers and 45acp in semi autos. Any help much appreciated!
 
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Yes, too light a charge.
But, 4.2 is a max load according to Hodgdon.
(Lyman says 4.5 is Max.)

So 4.2 should be plenty to cycle the slide.

Did you weigh the charge at 4.2, or just trust the dipper dips what they say it dips?

They usually don't.

rc
 
I just used the dipper and put my trust in it. Never used a dipper before but it came with the dies and I thought I'd give it a try.
 
I was using the Lee Reloading Manual and under 115gr fmj it lists 4.7 as max. 700x seems like such a dirty powder unless it's my imagination.
 
Trying to get good accuracy with a dipper and 700X will be a chore.

You may as well dip corn flakes.

Nothing wrong with using dippers, but you have to verify it with a scale. Well, I guess you don't HAVE to but it would potentially prevent a lot of headaches.
 
Lee makes a 5cc dipper? It doesn't show up on any of the Lee charts that I have nor in the set of dippers on their website. In any case, how do you know 5cc equals 4.2 gr of 700X? If you are getting that from a Lee chart, they are notorious for being light. You really should get a scale that weighs in grains.
 
Live and learn I guess. It didn't feel like too much oompf when I fired either gun. I won't reload more but I'll measure a few dipper fulls just to see what the grains actually are. Just measured and it comes to 4.0 gr.
 
Yep, I have 2 5cc dippers for some reason. I was going by the Lee Reloading Manual and it said 5cc = 4.2 gr of 700x
 
That's probably a 0.3 cc dipper, rather than a 3.0. The typical set goes from 0.3 to 4.3 cc sizes. You should check your weights with the dipper and see what you actually dip. It takes some practice to be consistent, particularly with pistol loads, where you don't want .3 or .4 grain variances. Depending on my load, I may want a full, mounded dipper, a flat one, or I may tip it when I scoop, and even then I dump each load on my scale pan and check it. If I get 75% of the scoops within +/- .1 grain, I'm doing good. If I'm just making a batch of plinkers, mid-range, and the scoop gets me close, I call it good. But for pistol I don't think you can just trust the slide card.
 
The dippers are fine BUT you must know what the actual volume WEIGHS. Invest in a a good scale. I prefer balance beam over cheap electronics.

Otherwise you are just guessing as to the weight. I used dippers for years and made custom ones for certain powders and loads out of spent brass. But the were weighed out.

A scale is the most important tool in reloading,
 
The Lee dipper or any other dipper is simply a volume measurement. If used correctly it will yield repeatable results. Just as a RCBS or similar powder measure is just a hole in metal cylinder. When using the dippers, no tapping or shaking. Scoop and level off with a straight edge (ever measure flour?)

They are a series of volume measurements in units of cc's. The type and structure of powder will make difference in how much they hold. Which is why they must be weighed. Used correctly they are very accurate.
 
These are the Hodgdon 700-x weights that I got when using the Lee dippers:
.3cc = 2.6gr.
.5cc = 4gr.
.7cc = 5.6gr.

Please note that the weight will change depending on how I use the dipper.

It seems that your powder should be mid to high range for 9mm. Maybe you also need to verify your COL by loading a few dummy rounds and making sure your guns cycle with the COL you are using. There are some excellent threads on how to determine the best COL for your specific gun.
 
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I hope you also have a scale, using the dippers are OK, if you know what the weight is first...those dippers volume vary from powder to powder... and yes, to answer your question, to light a charge will not cycle the action on a semi auto, worse yet, too light a charge will give you a Squibb, and that's a lot worse .....
 
Do you have a scale?

ChasMack. I infer from your post and your other posts that you have no scale. I suggest you get one to verify what your dipper actually drops.

It has been noted by several that Lee dippers throw light (compared to what Lee's table says). Their Auto-Disk measure does, too. I see from your post #7 that you must have access to a scale. I suggest you use it every time you load. Once when you start a production run and once at the end and a statistically significant number of times during the run.

Powder charges are published (in most books, articles and discussions) by weight. Weight is simply more reliably measured than volume. This is because settling can occur with different people. A guy who measures and shakes a dipper or a powder measure will get more powder than one who doesn't. Sometimes the difference is significant.

Weight is a more stable way of establishing loads and duplicating/repeating loads day after day and the technique of the operator is totally out of the picture (assuming the scale is proper). About the only thing that can change the weight of a given powder charge is moisture content, and most modern powders simply do not absorb much moisture from the air and we keep the cans sealed most of the time anyhow.

To summarize, Weight is the more reliable information to share and does not vary by technique of the operator. Loading by volume is faster in the loading operation. (Once you have established that your volumetric dispenser is, indeed, consistent.)

You can get by safely without a powder measure. You cannot get by safely without a scale.

Lost Sheep
 
I wasn't planing to start working up any loads with Hodgdon 700-X yet, but with the issue you had, I decided to load 5 rounds at the minimum based on Hodgdon data for 124gr BERB HBRN TP min 3.7gr max 4.2gr COL 1.150". I used the Xtreme 124gr CP HP, so I adjusted the COL to 1.095" to compensate for the shorter HP.

The grouping I got was 1.5", my POI was high and brass ejection was very weak, but my Sig SP2022 did cycle without any problems. This just tells me that I need to up the charge, which I will do when I start working up a load with 700-x.
 
Inexpensive scale

I have found powders vary from the listed VMD quite often.
CC (of powder)/Powder VMD = weight in grains.
or
Grains * VMD = CC
A scale would be a big help.
For example Unique is listed as a VMD of .1092
so a .5 dipper would be about 4.6 grains,
However
The jars of Unique I have are closer to a VMD of .132 (worked backward to get the VMD from disk size(dipper) and grains)
So at .132 a .5 cc dipper would be about 3.8 grains, big difference from the listed VMD.

So if I thought I had 4.6 but really had 3.8 the loads would be light and might not function the slide correctly.
Other powders are closer and sometimes correct but some vary.
I have never used 700x so can't even guess if the listed VMD is close.

I have had good luck with my Frankford DS750 scale ~ $28
DS750
.02 gram may or may not register
.05 gram checkweight measured .7gr (should be .77)
.1 gram check weight measured 1.5 gr (should be 1.54)
(remember .1 gr resoultion)
.2 gram Check weight measured 3.0 gr
1 gram = 15.4 gr

Gem20 Small pan, sensitive to air currents)
.01 gram check weight measured .16 gr (should be .154)
.02 gram check weight measured .32 gr
.05 gram check weight measured .77
.1 gram check weight measured 1.56
using these M2 check weights
http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh.../dp/B003STEJAC

So unless I was trying to weigh really light charges I use my Frankford DS750 and am happy with it, it is what I use probably 95% of the time. (make sure it has good AA batteries)
I think for $28 the DS750 is a good deal. ($28 Midway $25.72 Amazon)
 
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I'm pretty sure you are using way less than what you thing you are using with that dipper. If you don't have a scale (a good one, not the $10 Harbor Freight digital ones or any digital scale that only reads down to 0.1g) get a scale before doing anything else.

Once you validate your powder drops, it's OK to use dippers. With the correct technique, you can be very consistent with dippers, you just need to know what charge you are consistently dropping first.
 
Consult the reloading manuals before you try this, but if you are well and truly certain that you are throwing 4.0/700-X, perhaps you could try a heavier projectile, like a 124 grain cast.

Ultimately, your answer will probably consist of getting a good powder charge thrower, and an accurate scale. As an intermediate step to getting a good powder charge thrower, you could probably get by with an accurate scale, and a thing called a powder trickler.

You could use the Lee dipper to throw a charge weight that is close to what you want, and then use the trickler with the scale, to trickle the remaining powder up to whatever charge weight you want. It would involve weighing each charge, which can get laborious, but the expense for both of these items should be well short of what a decent powder charge thrower costs. And all of these combined are cheaper than replacing a ka-boomed automatic pistol.

Do you have access to another, slower-burning powder? I LOVE 700-X for .45 ACP, but I've had poor results in 9mm with it. Something slower, like Unique, Herco, AA#5, or the like, might work better.
 
My question for you, are you confirming what the dipper is producing, or just using the correlation chart? I always check the dipper against a beam scale, and honestly, the dippers rarely measure accurately. Different powder lots alone can have a significant impact on the scooped weight, but in general, it's imperative to check any volume type measuring device against a scale. I've found that there can be a .5 gr. or more variation.

But as already stated, your charge is very likely on the low side. But again though, always confirm the weight of the dipped charge with a scale.

GS
 
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