First-time reloads won't cycle

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IMtheNRA

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Hello, I made some reloaded ammo for the first time today. I'm using a Lee single-stage press that came with the Modern Reloading manual. (I'll upgrade to a Dillon if I like reloading). Also, Lee Carbide .45 dies and the .5cc dipper that came with them. Here's the formula that I used:

Berry's plated 200-grain bullet, .45 ACP
Win-231 5.4-gr using the .5cc Lee dipper
The OAL I ended up with is 1.210 +/- .003

The manual says that the minimum OAL is 1.190

I fired about 25 rounds today and not a single one cycled either of the two pistols I used, Glocks 21 and 30. The guns functioned great with other ammo. The problem was failure to eject with the brass still in the chamber, fully or partially, about 75% of the time, the brass was stovepiped about 25% of the time. The one time the brass ejected and plopped straight down, the slide did not have enough force to close on a fresh round...

It seems obvious that I'm making very light loads. But, according to the Lee Manual, the .5cc dipper is sufficient. I realize that my loads may be a little longer than the minimum OAL, but could that extra space make so much difference?

What exactly did I do wrong?
 
did you make sure not to have the bullet seating die in too far. i think the lee dies will put a crimp on the case mouth and possibly effect headspace?

you should also invest in a set of scales if you don't already have them. the lee dippers will get you in the ballpark, but i've found some of their data to be off.

it sounds like the charge is too light. if you started below max, gradually work your charge up and see if a hotter load helps. that is what i had to do for my 9mm. didn't like small charges.

oal problems usually show up when chambering, not ejecting.

you might also want to check into shooting plated bullets in a Glock. I don't think that is your problem, but i have read that you shouldn't shoot lead or thinly plated bullets through Glock barrels because of the type of rifling.

good luck....don't give up
 
load problems

OAL is something I had some trouble with when I started loading the 45. I got a Dillon case gage ($9) and found that if the rounds would go in the case gage they'd cycle fine in my guns. You might want to check the crimp too.
If you take your gun apart, and hold the barrel in one hand - do the rounds you loaded drop easily into the chamber?
 
SUGGEST

A teensy bit more crimp.
A wee bit more powder.
A bit more length.

.470"+.001"/-.002"
5.5-5.8g
1.250-1.255"+.015"/-.005"


Your results may vary; all data safe.
 
Dang, 5.4 of 231 by weight will cycle anything, by volume is another story. How many dippers is that? .5 cc would make what 3.5 or so? 5.4 is a fairly stout load, my guess is you are down in the 3.2-3.7 range in actuality.
 
OR EVEN BETTER

Tomorrow after our match I'll go in the shop and, using .5cc dippers (got about twelve of them), weigh their throws with W231.

:eek:

Yeah.
 
Well, I suspect that the .5 dipper that Lee lists in the load chart is not enough to hold 5.4-gr of Win 231... Weshoot2's experiment will help clear that up.

I think that the dippers are not going to be a good long-term solution to measuring powder.

Say, I understand the advise about more powder and length, but how do I increase crimp on the loads? The Lee dies don't seem to be adjustable for crimp, only for overall length.
 
The Lee dippers consistently weigh out light, at least with Unique. I don't know about other powders. I tried to use them, again with Unique, in conjunction with a scale. Spend $20 to $30 for a good scale and use the dippers as a teaspoon to scoop out powder to weigh.
 
Rounds chamber ok? Gun goes "POW" when the trigger is pulled? Slide does not cycle fully and empty brass is left in the chamber? Sounds like the load is way too light for the recoil spring.

By the way, Berry's plated semi-wadcutter is not the same shape as the classic Hensley & Gibbs #68-200grain SWC. The nose of the Berry's bullet is shorter and fatter. Load the semi-wadcutter bullet so that a little of the bullet shoulder is above the case mouth, 0.020" to 0.030" is about right. That being said, I can make a Hensley & Gibbs style bullet work in any of my 1911's, but the Berry's profile is a hit or miss proposition.

For crimping use either a Lee Factory Crimp die or a taper crimp die and crimping must be done as a separate step. The case mouth after crimping should be around 0.471". This can be eye-balled. After crimping you do not want to see the case mouth flared out, nor do you want it to be rolled into the bullet like a revolver round. It should have just a hint of roll in.
 
If the rounds chamber OK don't worry about the crimp. You can smash the bullet easily taper crimping. Adjust the crimp by bringing the bullet seating stem UP and the seating/crimp die DOWN for a stronger crimp. When they fit the chamber easily you have plenty of crimp. Overdo the crimp and accuracy can get terrible, and pressures can get high with real fast powders.
 
Lee's volume estimates tend to be significant OVERestimates. You're more likely measuring 4.8-5.0gr with that dipper.
 
Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die
For Handgun Ammunition That Must Work

A carbide sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability.
The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered.

Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds. The crimper cannot be misadjusted to make a case mouth too small to properly head-space. A firm crimp is essential for dependable and accurate ammunition. It will eliminate the problems of poor ignition of slow burning magnum powders.

LEE CARBIDE FACTORY CRIMP DIE 17.98
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

carbide1.jpg
 
Something isn't adding up here, and I bet it's your powder charge. If you're not consistently getting full ejection, you've got to turn up the throttle or get a lighter spring. With 231, it ain't your crimp that's the problem.

Lee dippers are OK for standard loads, but light loads in a semi-auto are pretty speciallized. IMO you will need a scale, at least to develop the load. I recommend Dillon's, but anyone's will do.

You may end up using a trimmed, or epoxy-filler-reduced, Lee dipper to mass-produce your specific load.

When I developed a light 9mm/115JHP WW231 load for my recoil-sensitive wife, I loaded 10 cartridges with each of several successively lowered charges. A trip to the range found that pistol's power-floor. Fine-tuning (again 10 or so cartidges for each load) located the minimum load that always ejected and cycled that particular gun, even when it was moderately dirty.

Hint: shoot heavier loads first, to get the gun nice and dirty.

Why toy with something that isn't reliable? Get a revolver for those silly-light loads. I have a pet load that launches a .44/180WC at about 600fps, punching one ragged hole (when I can do my part!) all day long. Ground squirrels fear my name.:what:
 
My Glock 30 isn't too reliable with light loads. Another problem can be the slight case bulge caused by plated and lead bullets. I just picked up a Lee factory crimp die and applied 2/3 turn of crimp to a 230gr LRN load using Titegroup. The load used to develop approx. 675-700fps and failed to eject about 5% of the time. It now produces 780-800fps and functions flawlessly using the same powder charge.
 
IMO powder load too light , do yourself a favor buy a scale and pitch the dippers I have found them to be inacurate ( mostly light in powder ) if you aregoing todo any major amounts of reloading get a reliable scale and powder thrower from lee,Rcbs,Lyman it will save youthe agrivation of having to pound out a light load bullet stuck in the barrel one day . oh yes least I forget Get the factory die like was suggested earlier it will save you some troble also
 
I checked the weight of W231 with a Lee .5cc dipper and it is approx. 5.3 gr. According to the Midway LoadMap, that will yield a vel. in the low 700's for a similar bullet (Speer 200 TMJ) - a mild load (as many have already said).

The bottom line is don't use dippers for weighing no matter what Lee says. They are not accurate nor repeatable. The next thing for any reloader to purchase after a press and dies is a scale, nothing else is more important. Dippers are good for getting close to a weight (I have a set just for that purpose), but then you should add powder until the actual weight you want is obtained.
 
CAUGHT IN MINOR TIME WARP

Monday I cleaned my gun.
Hadn't cleaned it in at least two years.

But I DID do the experiment Sunday after the match.
Checked seven .5CC dippers, throws ranged from 5.0g--5.5g W231, with an 'average' throw showing 5.266g.

Granted, I've had some practice using the dippers (indispensable for load development, mad scientest leaning over bench cackling), but when dipped into the powder and drawn out with the powder level with mouth I was pretty consistent at around 5.2-5.3g.
 
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread! As suspected, the load is too light.

It appears that the dipper is not a good long-term solution to dispensing powder. I'll pick up a scale and a Lee powder measure this weekend and I'll try this again. I like this early learning experience, and I can see how re-loading can be so addicting!

The load chart called for 5.4 grains of Winchester-231, and WESHOOT2 has an average weight of 5.266 grains for the .5cc dipper. I did not realize that just a tenth or two tenths of a grain could make so much difference between a light load and one that does not even cycle the guns (with stock Glock springs)!
 
I have used 5.0 in several guns...from 1911 Officers, to 1911 SA Champion models, to 1911 full sized...that 5.2 min oughtta work in your gun unless the recoil spring is rediculously heavy.
 
Hello Steve! I don't have any experience with 1911-types, so I don't know if Glock springs are heavy relative to what you use. On the compact Glock-30, I'd rate the spring heavy, just judging by feel against my other handguns. On the Glock-21, I'd say the spring feels light, but the slide is really beefy, probably heavier than the slides on any of my other guns.

Oh!!!!! I can't believe I forgot to mention this important part: The Glock-21 is a "C", ported model. This, I am sure, contributes to the weakening of already light loads! I can't believe I did not mention this before, I was just so focused on the light loads... Duh! What an oversight...

Of couse, the G-30 is not ported, and it did not cycle either.
 
OR

Might consider a Redding / RCBS / Hornady powder measure instead, cheap scale (RCBS 505), and 60g Scale Weight Check set.

You'll be happier, and safer, too.

OR


Swap a 230g FMJ/TCJ-RN for that 200g, and see what happens.......
 
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