CCI Primer Issue

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rogn said:
I have a coule of bricks of Wolf LRM that one box has had numerous FFT ,anda few hang fires(anybody remember these) .
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Other than a KBoom which I have never had a hang-fire is the scariest thing that can happen when you pull the trigger. I have had plenty of hang-fires when shooting surplus military ammo. I has some 7.5 French ammo last year that would produce on average 3 hang-fires in every 10 rounds. After 3 stripper clips (30 rounds) I gave up for the day. :banghead:
 
RainDodger said:
Tonight I'm going to run 100 cases back through a single stage press and give each primer a good, additional push to ensure full seating. I'll load them up and shoot them in the next couple days. More to come...

(bds - your photo is very interesting! The CCI guy led me to believe that the "3-legged-anvil" was much more common with CCI primers and that makes them a little harder to seat. From your pic... I don't see any 2-legged primers! I took a look at some Remingtons and they've got 3 legs also. Maybe other sizes have 2 legs or something, I don't know.)
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I use my Lee Classic single stage to seat my primers and do my priming as a separate stage. I don't mind taking a bit more time so I normally use 3 upstrokes to seat a primer, and then verify it on a flat surface to ensure it is seated. When I seat it I will do the first upstroke, then rotate the brass 90+ degrees, upstroke again, rotate again and then final upstroke. Sometimes I will skip the rotation if I get the good feedback that the primer was seated with just the right tension.
 
Circling back so everyone knows what the problem was:

Problem solved. Here's what I found:

Last night I took the very same 100 9mm cases that I had problems with earlier, and ran them through a single stage press to size them and re-prime them with new CCI primers, using the primer arm on a Redding Ultra-Mag press. This is a very sturdy press and all primers were easily seated fully and perfectly straight in the pockets. It's a tight press - indeed, the primer arm has never been used. I took these rounds to the range today and they worked 100%. Everything is right with the world.

The problem: it appears that for some reason, the priming tool that I was using did not seat the primers either fully, or straight - not sure which. What I find very interesting is... I also re-seated primers in 100 cases by running them back through this same tool and loading them. These primers had originally been seated with this tool. At the range today, I had 6 failure-to-fire cartridges in one 15-round magazine. This tool is an early (1960s?) RCBS bench-mounted priming tool that loads one primer at a time. It has now been retired. 

Now, my only hassle is the fact that I have ~2,000 cases that have been primed on this tool. I will punch those primers and re-seat new ones. At least I did not load them up without testing! This problem cost me about 2 bricks of primers and a bunch of time. I'm electing not to re-prime with the used primers, as I want to be able to count on my loads 100%.

Thanks all, for the ideas and tips. That's why this board is a great one.

R.
 
This reminds of the old adage, "a poor carpenter always blames his tools".
 
Thanks for the tip ArchAngelCD. The reason I wouldn't use the updated one is the primer tubes. At least for now I'll simply move to one of my press-mounted ones I think. I really don't like messing with loading up the tubes every 100 or so. I know it isn't dissimilar to dumping out 100 primers into a tray though. :) If I really can't stand using the press, I may just get one of those. We shall see.

Otto, not sure what you mean... in this case, it seems that it IS the tool. Just sayin'. :)
 
gamestalker said:
Oh ya, I remember that thread ... Still, not something I would ever consider doing, I'd probably die of a heart attack if one detonated.
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That's why I took one for the THR team dissecting the primers. ;):D

Although I knew it took impact force to ignite the primers, I was a bit nervous taking apart the primers (I had safety glasses, goggles, face shield and still flinched).

RainDodger said:
The problem: it appears that for some reason, the priming tool that I was using did not seat the primers either fully, or straight - not sure which. What I find very interesting is... I also re-seated primers in 100 cases by running them back through this same tool and loading them. These primers had originally been seated with this tool. At the range today, I had 6 failure-to-fire cartridges in one 15-round magazine. This tool is an early (1960s?) RCBS bench-mounted priming tool that loads one primer at a time. It has now been retired.
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Glad you identified the root cause of your problem. I have used a lot of CCI and other brand primers and have yet to experience failure to ignite except for a particular lot of Tula SP primers.

I normally "aim" for .004" below flush to properly seat the primer cup and set the anvil against the priming compound. In the Tula primer thread, primers were seated even deeper at .008" below flush "crush depth" where I flattened the tops of primer cups and they still worked fine. So feel free to seat the primers deep and hard - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7810685#post7810685

Picture shows primers seated .004" below flush and .008" below flush
attachment.php
 
YMMV but it is at least somewhat dangerous to "de" primer a live primer. I have done it and not had a problem, but not 2K for sure. I feel your pain though I had some primer problems on my first progressive press that I didn't find till I was many hundred into the process. Best of luck to you.
 
As for punching live primers out, I've done some rather large batches and never had one go bang.

But what I'm curious about, is why you would think you need to deprime them? In general, a priming tool, is a priming tool, and as long as they've been seated completely, they've most certainly gone in straight. Sure some tools may not be as easy to use, but they can't really seat a primer crooked without crushing one side of the primer cup, which would be very obvious, both by feel while priming, and certainly upon visual inspection. If they aren't obviously mashed in side ways, they probably just need to be seated deeper. Which makes this sound more like a case of contamination being the culprit if all else is fine. I base this on the fact that I've had a number that got seated in pockets with crimps that hadn't been removed, which caused obvious deformity of the primer cup, they still went bang though, never had a primer not go bang.

GS
 
I'm NOT telling anybody else to do it BUT....As long as the cases aren't loaded and just primed, If I thought there was a seating problem I'd run them through the press primer. I'll probably take some heat for that remark but that's what I would do.
 
Jason Neighbors said:
YMMV but it is at least somewhat dangerous to "de" primer a live primer. I have done it and not had a problem, but not 2K for sure. I feel your pain though I had some primer problems on my first progressive press that I didn't find till I was many hundred into the process. Best of luck to you.
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I have to disagree. Primers are designed to go bang when sharply struck on the face of the cup. Pressing them out presents minimal danger of ignition if any.
 
I agree with ArchA, just re-prime them, if you must. It's no big deal, just use a steady pull of the handle, and adjust the decapping rod out long enough, so your not resizing the brass. But considering your brass has already had a bullet seated in it, you may as well do the whole resizing process at the same time.

Also of importance and it touches on my precious reply, is your loaded brass by any chance contaminated with lube, or did you possibly have something on your hands / fingers that may have killed them while priming?

GS
 
RainDodger said:
Circling back so everyone knows what the problem was:

Problem solved. Here's what I found:

Last night I took the very same 100 9mm cases that I had problems with earlier, and ran them through a single stage press to size them and re-prime them with new CCI primers, using the primer arm on a Redding Ultra-Mag press. This is a very sturdy press and all primers were easily seated fully and perfectly straight in the pockets. It's a tight press - indeed, the primer arm has never been used. I took these rounds to the range today and they worked 100%. Everything is right with the world.

The problem: it appears that for some reason, the priming tool that I was using did not seat the primers either fully, or straight - not sure which. What I find very interesting is... I also re-seated primers in 100 cases by running them back through this same tool and loading them. These primers had originally been seated with this tool. At the range today, I had 6 failure-to-fire cartridges in one 15-round magazine. This tool is an early (1960s?) RCBS bench-mounted priming tool that loads one primer at a time. It has now been retired. 

Now, my only hassle is the fact that I have ~2,000 cases that have been primed on this tool. I will punch those primers and re-seat new ones. At least I did not load them up without testing! This problem cost me about 2 bricks of primers and a bunch of time. I'm electing not to re-prime with the used primers, as I want to be able to count on my loads 100%.

Thanks all, for the ideas and tips. That's why this board is a great one.

R.
Click to expand...

Why would you deprime 2K cases??

Are you a competition shooter, match shooter with something to lose?
 
You may find this useful. I started out visually inspecting primers after seating them and I still do. When I first started doing this I started noticing the occasional primer that felt o.k. during seating, but still
didn't look quite right (didn't look like it was quite down evenly). This was on about any tool I used (the old downstroke
priming, ram prime, or the hand priming tools). So I started seating as normal and then turning the case about 90 degrees and reseating. That totally eliminated that issue. I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. It's just something I do automatically. Every one always looks fine. And there have been no failures.

And we will add the following "disclaimer" since we are fairly certain someone else will, if we don't, soon, and probably will anyway.

"Of course it is a total waste of time."

( just like filling out reloading labels, trimming brass, keeping track of how many times brass has been loaded, double checking powder and charges et. al. ) OYE
 
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Rule3... nope, I don't compete with 9mm, however I will not have ammunition that isn't 100%. You never know what the ammo will be used for. Last night I dug into an ammo can of primed cases and pulled out about 20. I ran them through an H&K and 2 failed to detonate. Even range ammo that can't be counted on to be better than a 10% failure rate is not acceptable. I'll eat the cost of the primers before I'll live with that.
 
oldreloader said:
I'm NOT telling anybody else to do it BUT....As long as the cases aren't loaded and just primed, If I thought there was a seating problem I'd run them through the press primer. I'll probably take some heat for that remark but that's what I would do.
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Yea, no big deal. In the remote chance of one going off, it is enclosed and cannot do any damage. And I agree with ArchAngelCD, pushing them out with a sizer or universsal decap die is extremely unlikely to set one off, and again, they are contained if one does. (Just don't be looking down in the die while doing it.)

Never be afraid to seat primers hard when priming cases. The are far more problems with seating too soft and not getting them deep enough, and virtually none from seating them hard. It is extremely difficult to "crush" a primer to the point it misfires.
 
RainDodger said:
Rule3... nope, I don't compete with 9mm, however I will not have ammunition that isn't 100%. You never know what the ammo will be used for. Last night I dug into an ammo can of primed cases and pulled out about 20. I ran them through an H&K and 2 failed to detonate. Even range ammo that can't be counted on to be better than a 10% failure rate is not acceptable. I'll eat the cost of the primers before I'll live with that.
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Seeing that you are/were a Naval Aviator I can see why perfection is in your blood. You guys need to be.:) Best of the Best.
 
Just a quick thought based on an experience I encountered some time back....

Is there any chance you could have inadvertently mounted and been using the large primer seating stem with the small primers? Perhaps this resulted in some primers not being fully seated (beyond flush with the case). I'm not even sure it would be possible with your RCBS set up, just a thought.

My issue was the reverse, used the small stem while seating large primers, in a lee hand primer. I was verifying success by feel and 25 cases into 100 cases I visually inspected one enough to note odd slight indentations in the primers. DOH! I am now in the habit of removing the stem after use, so I have to consider which one to install the next time I pick it up.
 
Nope. If you set it up that way, it's easy to recognize the first time you try it. I'm still sort of at a loss as to why/how this all happened now. I've never had any problem like it.

I don't completely believe it's a primer seating problem, but I have no other explanation. Reason is, I ran a bunch of cases back through and ensured the primers were well seated (and none moved anyway)... and there were still all kinds of failures to detonate in that bunch. Deep inside my little brain, I have this little inkling thought that there could be some kind of primer contamination. No way to tell.
 
Wow, this is so peculiar. I agree totally with you that a failure rate regardless of how small, is absolutely unacceptable.

So, that being said, and 2K of primed brass you can't count on, punch all those primers out, discard them (major bummer), then onto eliminating any possibility of contamination. With am unknown cause, and high rate of failure like this, a guy has to take some drastic measures to make sure all variables are eliminated.

Maybe tumble them again, and then at the very least swab the pockets with alcohol and a Q tip, or dip the pockets in alcohol, just make sure they are totally dry before priming. Key point here, and not knowing what went wrong, make certain there is nothing present that could contaminate the new primers. And for heaven sake man, wash your hands before priming, ha, ha, just joking with ya. But seriously make sure your hands are free of any possible contaminates before handling them.

I would also definitely follow through with contacting CCI with the lot number. This could be a manufacturer thing, though I've never had a single CCI fail, or any other brand, you just never know?

GS
 
If it was me, I would set aside some of the loaded rounds with possible bad primers for training purposes. These rounds will give you the failed to detonate scenario without using snap caps, plus the added benefit of no knowing if any will fail or not. If there are no loaded rounds and just primed brass, then it will probably make sense just send all of them through the deprimer and then decide if you want to reuse them.
 
I had a thought.

Before you deprime 2000 cases, could I suggest you prime a couple hundred cases using different brand primers?

This way, if the primers were bad, you would not have any failure to ignite. If the issue was with equipment/method, you should get similar number of failures.

What do you think?
 
First off... no chance for lot numbers. I primed them all over the holidays and all the packaging went out with trash at that time. Learned something there...

I'm simply not going to mess with the old bench-mounted primer tool. It's roughly 40 years old and I'm going to retire it I think.

I'm going to punch the primers and re-prime on a press. I'll do a couple hundred, test, and go from there. I've already verified that with new primers, all rounds work perfectly when primed on the press. I'm also starting to think about whether it's really worth the chance (even if it is .001%) of contaminating a primer by tumbling primed unloaded cases. I just may not do it anymore because it's not really needed.

This was one big learning experience! Everyone's input has been greatly appreciated!
 
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