CCW/IDPA/USPSA 9mm Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
Having owned and carried both a G17 and a G19 I am going to agree I found the G17 no more problem to CCW than the G19.

IF I was buying a single gun to carry and game it would be the G17.

You size may dictate something else.
 
Last edited:
choices

My advice is put a few more bucks with it and get yourself a Heckler & Koch USP 9mm, and then you won't have a thing in the world to concentrate on or worry over except hitting the target. USP stands for Universal Self-loading Pistol, see...you don't even have to worry about loading it.:)
 
ridicule and jokes

Ridiculous, joking, huh, ever hear of a man named Tim Lott? Held the top spot in this division or area for many years against all comers, guess what he shot. I only beat him 8 times in as many years. He was the co-founder of South Mississippi Practical Shooting Association, SMPSA if you want to see some scores from a USPSA sanctioned club, look back a few years as he got sick and died. I made it my purpose to outshoot him and his H&K, tough job....no joke.
 
Been covered many times. You mentioned one guy. I can mention one guy: Earnest Langdon. Simply because he won with a Beretta, and also a SIG doesn't make them competitive guns. Some guys can win with just about any gun. Those guys are at the top of their game. I've won trophies with a SIG, but that didn't stop me from switching to a more capable pistol, the M&P.

The OP clearly states that he is new to handguns. The H&K, whether you and Tim like it or not, is NOT a competitive handgun. It will be more difficult for a new shooter to pick up and be successful with than other choices that make more sense: Glock, XD, M&P.
 
To parrot previous posts, get what you feel most comfortable with, and shoot the best with. The important thing with most shooting sports, is to be safe and have fun. Starting out, you'll probably hit the local club level matches, these are great fun. I just started shooting IDPA at a couple of the local ranges, and it's great fun, and good practice as well. I usually CC a Sig 239 in 9mm, but I compete with an XDm in 9mm. Even though both are great guns, and oddly enough the stiffer competition seems to be in the SSP, I bought the XDm primarily to be my IDPA gun. I might just use my Sig 239 (I have 10 rnd mags) at the match this week.

You might also go to a range that rents guns, try several, and decide what you want. Then spend a lot of range time with it before considering competing at a match. I've seen a few new shooters trying to compete at a match, and quite honestly, it can be a little scary at times.
 
I use a XD subcompact 9mm for CCW and USPSA (never done IDPA)

Works great but I'm not too concerned about winning matches. I just like to try and improve on my own performance each time. I use the XDsc because I like to get as much trigger time as possible on my carry gun
 
You need to decide what's important to you. If you are buying a carry gun then focus on the carry, compact like G19 is better than full sized like G17. You can then shoot IDPA to get better at what might happen if you needed to use your carry gun. If you get serious about wanting to win IDPA or USPSA/IPSC then you will need to buy a non-carry gun for competition like G34.

Glocks used as examples but the same applies to other manufacturers.
 
I just like to try and improve on my own performance each time. I use the <YOUR PISTOL HERE> because I like to get as much trigger time as possible on my carry gun

This x1000!
 
Been covered many times. You mentioned one guy. I can mention one guy: Earnest Langdon. Simply because he won with a Beretta, and also a SIG doesn't make them competitive guns. Some guys can win with just about any gun. Those guys are at the top of their game. I've won trophies with a SIG, but that didn't stop me from switching to a more capable pistol, the M&P.

The OP clearly states that he is new to handguns. The H&K, whether you and Tim like it or not, is NOT a competitive handgun. It will be more difficult for a new shooter to pick up and be successful with than other choices that make more sense: Glock, XD, M&P.

As a long time shooter but newbie to IDPA, There's a lot here that I'd like to understand better. Why is an M&P a better "competition" gun than a Sig or HK? I've seen Sigs shoot consistently more accurately than Glocks and M&P's at the range, so is there some customization being done to theGlocks and M&P's that make them so much better for IDPA?

Second, I've put thousands of rounds down Glock 17, 30 and 23's, as well as 1911's and others. The Sig short reset trigger is the best trigger I've fired. Now, is there something about this set up that puts it at a disadvantage for IDPA?

Lastly, IDPA professes to be about standard self defense and concealed carry, so why is there all this talk about "competition" guns? I know cops like Glocks because of the reliability and price, but many civilians don't want to carry a gun with no safety other than a trigger lever. Plus, cops wear their glocks in open carry with retention holsters, so the trigger safety isn't an issue. Nonetheless, many cops have their Glock triggers made heavier. (NY trigger) There are also plenty of cops and civilians who feel the 40 and 45 are superior to the 9mm for self defense. So why would IDPA cater to 9mm striker fired weapons so heavily? (Other than the CDP class) I would think DAO and DA/SA 40's would be the bread and butter of an organization wishing to promote self defense and CCW skills.
 
Last edited:
If you really like SIGs, you can be very competitive with them. I shoot weekly with a lady who made SSP Master with one of hers last year. I know a couple of other Master class shooters who use them. For the most part, these are very experienced shooters who learned early in their shooting to like the SIG's ergonomics and shoot very well despite the shortcomings inherent to it's design and manual of operations.

Some of those deficiencies are:
High bore-axis: The barrel sits up out of the shooter's hand higher than some other designs. From a physics standpoint, this increases the leverage of recoil acting to twist the gun up out of the shooter's hand.

DA/SA trigger: Fewer and fewer shooters of any type are embracing a trigger that changes feel, weight, and length-of-pull from shot to shot. Yup, you can learn to work very well with it. No, it isn't as simple to operate as a true SA or a striker fired gun.
Oh, and that SIG short reset trigger is not standard and not the traditional SIG trigger.

Ergonomics: Many SIGs feel a bit like gripping a paint can. Chubby little suckers. Some like it, some don't.

Why do some guns become more popular in the sport of IDPA? Two reasons, that are related. 1) It is, at heart, a game with rules. Folks who like to play that game will spend all kinds of time and money figuring out what works the very best to help them be successful. 2) The sport, just like the self-defense situations it in some ways reflects, favors a combination of speed and accuracy. Some guns hit that sweet spot better than others. And, smart manufacturers mine this information and produce gun systems that move closer and closer to that ideal. Heck, even SIG now offers a short-reset trigger, as you mentioned.

IDPA caters to 9mm striker fired pistols because they DO THE JOB. Now, if you really like DA/SA trigger systems, there is no reason at all you can't do very well with them. If you can shoot your DA/SA faster and more accurately than the next guy with a striker fired gun, YOU will win. If you can't, you won't. That might teach you something about the gun, but it should tell you more about YOU. If you put in the effort to learn to be competitive with a SIG -- develop your skills and understanding to the point where you can win a few matches -- then honestly evaluate the platform you're using and see if a different one would help you put your rounds on target faster and/or more accurately. Maybe yes, maybe no. Up to you.

As far as cops and their Glocks, a retention holster and a trigger safety really don't have anything to do with each other. ANY holster worth wearing EVER will cover the trigger guard, making the trigger safety a moot point.

-Sam
 
^ Yup. I made master with my SIG because that is what I carry on-duty. I carry my M&P off duty because its lighter and easier to conceal. I call it my "competition gun" because that is what I bought it for. I found out afterward that it also made for a better carry gun than the SIG.

As far as "good triggers", as long as its not gritty and heavy, I don't notice the difference between a good trigger and a great trigger when I'm shooting a course of fire. Going to the range and plinking slow-fire is a different story. On a speed course, what I notice is the tracking of the sights. With the M&P, they return to my point of aim quicker and more consistently than with the SIG. This means quicker follow up shots.

As far as group size, the difference between a gun capable of a 1.5" group at 25 yards and a gun that shoots a 3" group at 25 yards isn't going to be as big a deal in IDPA as is the time it takes you to fire an 8 inch group. I'll take the slightly less accurate gun when it gets an accurate enough group done significantly faster.
 
Last edited:
Sam, Thanks for the detailed answer. The bore axis is something I didn't know. Also, something I probably wouldn't notice unless I was trying to shave a few tenths of a second from shot to shot, so I'm glad you explained it to me.

Guess I am just looking at the big picture because I don't compete yet. In the real world, unless you're a cop carrying openly where a full size gun isn't much of a hindrance, most ccw'ers are carrying compact weapons in very concealable rigs. Many of those opt for a 9mm and many others like the added security of 40 or even 45. So I guess I am a little surprised that IDPA doesn't at least have a class for people drawing from IWB's, shooting compact weapons, weapons with more safety features and more firepower. (or some combination of all those attributes) We can't all wear comp-tac belt holsters and carry striker fired 9mm's every day. Anyhoo, I don't mean to disparage IDPA. It sounds like a great way to train and many people probably just have to decide not to get carried away trying to win, but rather just focus on becoming better with their every day carry piece. Thanks again for the info!
 
Thanks Rob. Read yours after posting back to Sam. I need to try an M&P I guess. I had lumped them in with the XD as another Glock copy. I like Glocks, but found my Sig more accurate and felt like it was a bit safer too. Seems those two attributes don't help much in IDPA. HAve been meaning to try an XD with manual safety too.

It's all just splittin hairs between the perfect competition rig and the my idea of a perfect carry gun. That idea has changed several times from 1911's to Glocks and now to Sigs. I'm sure it could change again. (although I love my Sig.)
 
Glock, xD, M&P...all very hair-splitting shades of the same thing.

The Glock has a different grip angle...the xD has a grip safety which is nice but also has an odd classification that puts in in ESP, not SSP in IDPA, the M&P has the lowest bore axis of the three, but some have had reliability problems...

There are die-hard fans of each and folks who can't stand either, but they're AWFULLY close to the same EXACT thing. I have my preference, but I really can't bite into the argument that one is more than a hair's-breadth better than either of the other two.

Why?

Because, handgun technology seems to be trending towards producing the best pistol for the most people. All these guns are accurate enough, safe enough, cheap enough, and FAST enough to be the most shootable platform for the most people. It isn't that they're awesome at any one thing, but that they hit a tangible balance for a growing percentage of shooters.

And, just as autoloaders in general did to revolvers a few decades ago, they're slowly moving the shooting public (to include LEOs and .mil) away from other designs. As new shooters start out on developing their proficiency, they're finding that these striker-fired guns enable them to do better, faster, than DAOs, DA/SAs, revolvers, and they have enough other benefits (weight, capacity) to give them a popularity edge over the 1911s.

Now, when you put extreme concealability into the mix, and consider the extreme compacts and subcompacts...well, to tell you the truth the Glock and xD (maybe the M&P, too) are still VERY popular. And, you've mentioned larger calibers a few times. You're undoubtedly aware that you can get your striker-fired polymer-framed Glock, M&P, or xD in lots of pretty potent calibers (Glocks, up to 10mm!).

I, personally, love 1911s and love revolvers. I choose to shoot them in competition more often than I do my xD. But I've watched too many thousands of shooters do too well with those guns to fool myself into thinking that the Glock/xD/M&P family of guns isn't the most efficient hand-held bullet delivery platform available at the moment.

I've posted this before, but it is telling... at last years' IDPA Nationals, I watched Dave Olhasso win the CDP (that's the 1911s, remember) Division Champion's plaque shooting a down-loaded .45 M&P. That says something.

-Sam
 
Sam, yeah I've mentioned larger calibers because it seems everyone who is serious about competing shoots 9mm due to the lower required power factor. Isn't this correct? So, it is more a criticism of IDPA. I read posts where guys are talking about using light loads to gain advantage at IDPA. I doubt many carry those same loads.

So, you say a guy won CDP with an M&P. Dies that mean any 45 auto can compete in CDP?
 
The choice of 9mm in competition is twofold.

Yeah, factory ammo is softer than .40 and still meets power factor.
Its also a matter of cost. 9mm, whether reloaded or factory, is cheaper to practice and shoot with. Also, with +P modern loadings, its a more viable defensive round than it was thought to be 10+ years ago.
 
So, you say a guy won CDP with an M&P. Dies that mean any 45 auto can compete in CDP?
As Jim said, as long as it meets the rules for CDP, yes, any .45 ACP can enter. Dave O. beat the other Master class shooters with their 1911s, with his striker-fired .45 M&P, loading only 8 rounds in each magazine, as required for that division.

-Sam
 
I've mentioned larger calibers because it seems everyone who is serious about competing shoots 9mm due to the lower required power factor. Isn't this correct?

To a degree. Of course, the CDP and ESR guys are pretty "serious" and they have to hit 165,000. (Hardball .45 ACP or equivalent.)

There's lots of competative folks who show up and shoot factory ammo in 9mm, .40 S&W, .38 Spc, etc. And there's lots of folks who reload their ammo and try to get down pretty close to the minimum required power floor.

In 9mm, it isn't that big a deal. Your 125gr./1000 fps game load isn't going to be too awful different from your 125 gr/ 1100-1200 fps carry load. In .38 Spc, your "game" ammo is almost definitely going to have to be HOTTER than the factory stuff!

If you load .40 S&W, you can "cheat" a little and load a comparitively light charge -- because you're really competing with the 9mms. If this doesn't appeal to you, don't do it. Like a lot of the other rules, these are minimums, designed to put some limits on how far folks can go to "game" the game. If you want to shoot carry ammo and use a deeper concealment holster and a sub-compact gun, go for it! You're only really competing against yourself, anyway.

If you want to compete against the gamers using lighter loads, you'll either need to be incrementally better than them so that you can compensate for slightly slower equipment, or you'll have to modify your equipment and load to match theirs...and be incrementally better than them.

I'll add one last thought: Up to a certain pretty high level of proficiency, the benefits of using minimum power floor loads vs "full-power" loads are more psychological than practical. Just like when new shooters ask if they should modify their guns or buy expensive competition gear to get a leg up -- spend a year or two getting as good as you can with the equipment you choose. When you've put 5 or 10 thousand rounds downrange in competition, and practice for competition, then you're in a much better position to evaluate how much -- or how little -- difference these things really make. The actual benefits to gaming the system are a lot smaller than people make them out to be. At the upper levels, where things are decided by the tenths and hundredths of a second, those differences can be important, but for most shooters they're simply a crutch, distraction, or excuse. :)

-Sam
 
Last edited:
How about a G23 with a "longer" 9mm conversion barrel.

That way you get more stopping power of 40S&W for carry and the longer 17 like 9mm barrel size for match shooting/cheaper practice (You just need to use G17/G19 magazines for match - up to 19/20 rounds with mag extensions on G17). With drop in conversion barrels, you can even shoot lead for even cheaper practice/match shooting.

If you later decide to go major power factor, you can use stock/longer 40S&W barrel to easily meet that requirement and still shoot lead with the drop in barrel.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top