CCW in Post Office for FFL holder?

[carnaby]

Can an FFL holder carry in the PO? I've found a lot of threads about CCW in the post office online and at THR, and a lot of threads about how anyone can ship a long gun via USPS but only an FFL can send a pistol that way.

But can an FFL holder CCW at the post office? I can't find an answer anywhere. Would this pass the "official business" test?

 

[evan price]

No. Federal regs prohibit anyone from carrying.

 

[zxcvbob]

The law is ambiguous. I sure don't wanna be the testcase, do you?

 

[toivo]

Don't take this as legal advice, but I believe "official business" refers to LEO.

 

[Baldy]

Your CCP is state and your in a federal building. You can be prosecuted under fed law. Don't do it.

 

[Sam1911]

Read this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=457576

It will explain the two laws which seem to conflict, and why the one that makes it ILLEGAL wins.

In fact, it will show you how the same prohibition extends to the PARKING LOTS of post offices as well.

Don't do it.

 

[Sam1911]

Carnaby has asked me to reopen this to explore whether there is any specific statutory or case law that speaks to FFLs having different rights to carry, specifically at the post office, than other private citizens.

I've agreed, but keep all responses directed to the question of whether an FFL can be considered to be under an exemption for "Official Business."

Having read several threads on the matter -- including the one I linked -- I believe the answer is clearly NO, but anything definitive would help.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Carnaby has asked me to reopen this to explore whether there is any specific statutory or case law that speaks to FFLs having different rights to carry, specifically at the post office, than other private citizens.

FFLs are treated no differently. The regs clearly show that having a gun to ship is a legal purpose, while carrying one for self defense etc is not. It is not a Federal requirement that FFLs carry a firearm so there is no "special" treatment loophole there.

 

[gearhead]

Here’s a question I have. What is the law with respect to a contract post office located in a section of a regular place of business? I’m not talking about a Mailboxes, Etc. kind of place, I’m thinking of a couple of places in my city where a business owner has a contract branch of the US Post Office located in a portion of a business and staffed by the store’s employees rather than USPS employees?

The “official” Post Office on my side of town is off-limits to me unless I make a specific trip there and disarm before I leave the house. It’s located in a residential area on a busy 4-lane street, the only parking that’s available within a quarter mile or more is either on the premises of the Post Office or at a Day Care next door, both are prohibited locations so I’m not even legal by leaving my weapon in the car while transacting business! The contract places are really my only 100% legal alternative.

 

[wishin]

FFLs are treated no differently. The regs clearly show that having a gun to ship is a legal purpose, while carrying one for self defense etc is not. It is not a Federal requirement that FFLs carry a firearm so there is no "special" treatment loophole there.

Agreed. Even if someone with endless funds decided to try to get the law changed, there's no good reason for an FFL to be treated any differently than any non-FFL when it comes to personal carry.

 

[Bubba613]

FFLs are treated no differently. The regs clearly show that having a gun to ship is a legal purpose, while carrying one for self defense etc is not. It is not a Federal requirement that FFLs carry a firearm so there is no "special" treatment loophole there.

What he said.

ATF regs specifically speak about the FFL being a license to do business and nothing more. It does not confer special rights or privileges for carry or anything else.

 

[Gary Slider]

When a federal office is located in building or strip mall with other private businesses and they are leasing that store only that store that contains the Post Office or Federal Office is off limits. Don't walk up to the window or go through their door and you are OK if you are allowed by law to carry in the other areas outside that Federal Office or Post Office in a mall or Strip mall. The parking lot is not off limits in these instances as the Federal Workers or Postal Workers are leasing the Store in the building and not the parking lot. It is open to the public for visiting the other stores in the Mall or Strip Mall. This comes up most as there are US Military Recruiting Offices in Malls.

Now for a building that is being used as a post office on a contract and the place is being run by employees of the store and not the Postal Service. I am not sure. But the Postal Service has a contract with them. I would not carry there but I can not say if this would be against the Fed Regulations on the Post Office that makes carry on their property illegal. This is one of those very gray areas and it would take an attorney. I also believe what the Contract language states would have a bearing on it that is why an Attorney would be the one who would have to answer this question and that would not be the final answer. It could take a court case to even settle that.

 

[gearhead]

That's sort of what I thought, that it's a very gray area. One contract P.O. I've used didn't have a separate door, it was just a counter at the back of a rather small (maybe 350-400 sq. ft.) Craft and Gift shop. The lady who operated the store would walk back behind the counter if you wanted to use the services of the Post Office, so it's hard to distinguish the Post Office area from the rest of the store (which was NOT posted).

 

[NavyLCDR]

When a federal office is located in building or strip mall with other private businesses and they are leasing that store only that store that contains the Post Office or Federal Office is off limits.

OOPS, I didn't read carefully enough. You said where the post office leases the store, like in an entire space in a mall... yes, you are correct. My apologies, my post below is applicable to a post office counter located within a store...


I disagree, Gary. The entire store where the post office is located is not off limits. Only that portion of the property which is under the actual control of the post office (IE: behind the post office counter):

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=39:1.0.1.4.21.0.1.1&idno=39

39 CFR 232.1
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

FYI when one was leaving the States or shipping a gun out of the country to be returned, one had to take the weapon to the Customs House and have it registered on Customs form 4457. After 9/11 you now must call them to make an appointment and they will meet you outside. If you don't register it (even if it's a U.S. made gun) you have to jump thru a lot of hoops and hurdles with BATFE to get permission to import.

 

[Gouranga]

One way to know for sure..call the postmaster for your local location and get his feedback. I think the guys here already gave you a solid answer but could not hurt to contact him. At least around here the postmaster is very approachable and always willing to answer a question or two.

 

[esquare]

There is a court case challenging this in light of recent scotus cases. A couple does not get home mail service and must go to the post office to pick up their mail, but they can't carry while there. It should be a good test case of this law.

 

[toivo]

One way to know for sure..call the postmaster for your local location and get his feedback.

Agreed, but make sure you get the postmaster, not one of the clerks. They often don't know the regulations all that well. I had one tell me that I couldn't ship a shotgun to an FFL unless I was an FFL. She had to look it up.

 

[Bubba613]

A couple does not get home mail service and must go to the post office to pick up their mail, but they can't carry while there. It should be a good test case of this law

I can't imagine this will go very far. It is a basic principle that the property-rights holder can prohibit anyone he wants to carry. How is the PO any different and how is it mitigating that this couple chose not to get mail service at home?

 

[gearhead]

There are places where there IS no home mail delivery, and the Postal Service is a mandated service to all residents which makes it different than a typical property rights case. If it's the right case it could raise some interesting points.

 

[Bubba613]

There are places where there IS no home mail delivery, and the Postal Service is a mandated service to all residents which makes it different than a typical property rights case.

I still cannot see a court deciding that the right to carry trumps a property right. The plaintiffs can certainly disarm and enter the post office like everyone else.

 

[esquare]

Government does not have property rights like private owners do. Why is it that public schools can't force students to sign a religious pledge before enrollment, but private schools can? Same thing here - government entities cannot violate people's civil rights by exclusion.

 

[Bubba613]

Government does not have property rights like private owners do. Why is it that public schools can't force students to sign a religious pledge before enrollment, but private schools can? Same thing here - government entities cannot violate people's civil rights by exclusion.

You make an assertion about property rights and skip to 1A rights to support it. That is not logical and a non-sequitur.
Do people have a right to be armed in all places under all circumstances? I don't think any court has ruled thus. So the gov't can set whatever standards they want consistent with current law.

 

[esquare]

No, my example was to show that property rights differ between public and private institutions. If you can't connect the dots on this one, then I think we'll end this conversation now.

 

[Gary Slider]

NavyLt, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. The store or stall they lease is all they have control over.

I have seen a post office in a mall that had the sliding gates and about two steps inside that gate and there was the counter. I figure if you walk inside past where the gate closes off the PO from the rest of the mall you are in the Post Office. Walking in front of it thru the mall would be OK. Just the office or store that they lease is PO or Government property. All other private businesses and common areas in the Mall fall under the state laws on carrying firearms and are not Government property.

Now a store that also does the mail like was described. That is was a shop but they also had mail boxes and gave people their mail, mailed letters and sold stamps etc. This was a gray area. If he/she uses the same counter for sales as he/she does for PO business? This I am not sure about. Is the whole store PO Property? Just the part used for Mail? IF you are buying something from the PO then I would think it would fall under PO Regulations. But if you are buying some trinkets from the store but use the same counter would that be the PO then? That is what I am not sure about. I have never heard of a case concerning this. The only Cases I have heard about with firearms on PO Property concerned PO Employees and they had their firearms in their vehicle on the PO Property. The two cases I have read about they were fired but I never heard if they were charged with breaking the PO restrictions on firearms in Federal Code. I have never read that someone was charged and tried for having a firearm on PO Property. Again the two I have read about they were just fired.

But getting back to the store that also has a mail contract. That is the gray area. I would believe the government would look at it as a post office. But what I believe doesn't matter. I would not want to be the test case as I believe if they did charge you I believe they would try to bankrupt you if you didn't cop a plea. That seems to be the way they work. I do know for sure that if it is in a strip Mall or Regular Mall the parking lot is not PO Property.