Changing Point of Impact when Shooting Fast?

[Chris Rhines]

This may be one of those really obvious questions, but it came up today when I was shooting some drills on 3x5 index cards at 7-10 yards. I'm seeing a significant change in my point of impact when I shoot quickly, as opposed to when I shoot slow.

If I shoot with a very slow, careful cadence, slow press, surprise break, etc., my pistol (S&W M&P9 Pro) shoots right at point of aim at 10 yards. But if I get a little more aggressive on the trigger, my groups move down by 2-3 inches.

The overall group size changes very little from slow fire to rapid, so whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it consistently.

So I'm curious - does anyone else notice this? If so, what do you do to correct it? Should I re-zero my pistol so that it hits point of aim when shooting fast?

-C

 

[David E]

You're flinching.

Proper technique and paying attention to details in an accelerated manner solves this.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I wouldn't call it flinching, more "jerking the trigger." One of the toughest things for me in rapid fire is keeping the trigger pull smooth and fast.


The chart assumes a RH shooter, and is from this website.

It's also possible you're using a different hold for rapid fire: tighter grip by strong hand or support hand, or both. See what happens if you take a really strong grip with slow-fire.

 

[BCRider]

You may indeed be letting a bit of flinch sneak in or you're holding a little harder when rapid firing. Also define what "rapid fire" is for you in this case.

Instead of shooting a whole series of shots at a single card try a big sheet of paper with a half dozen or eight half inch dots. Shoot a series of double taps with two shots only at each spot then evaluate your first and second shot impact points. It helps if a buddy can watch and give you feedback on the first and second shot tendencies. I'd start each double tap from a low ready with a second to compose yourself between each pair of shots. That way if you're increasing or altering your grip from normal it'll have a moment to ease off.

 

[Ankeny]

If I shoot with a very slow, careful cadence, slow press, surprise break, etc., my pistol (S&W M&P9 Pro) shoots right at point of aim at 10 yards. But if I get a little more aggressive on the trigger, my groups move down by 2-3 inches.

And that is exactly why the most common miss on a plate rack, especially during man vs. man competition, is at 6:00 O'Clock. Could be you are timing the gun in such a fashion that you are bringing it below the point of aim just as you are breaking the shot. May not have a thing to do with flinching, grip, or your trigger finger.

 

[David E]

Could be you are timing the gun in such a fashion that you are bringing it below the point of aim just as you are breaking the shot.

If the sights aren't properly aligned, then he shouldn't be breaking the shot.

May not have a thing to do with flinching, grip, or your trigger finger.

True, it's only about a 99% chance he's flinching.....

 

[oldfool]

Ankeny is right, of course, but could be flinching (such as difference in a harder grip when speeding up, whether you think of that as being flinch factor or not), could be timing, pulling the muzzle down vs letting it come down
You could just be outrunning yourself. Try slowing it down a little, somewhere in the middle, and only pick up speed as consistent POI holds true, and try not to "think" about speed, just let it come.
(then again your 'slow' is probably already quicker than my 'fast', most are)

but I would not think it a good notion to re-zero your sights for 'fast' vs 'slow', whatever it is, which was your primary question
(and working on DTs sounds like a mighty good notion to me; get that follow up shot home 1st, every time, then get more 'repetitive')

 

[chris in va]

I think it's just the fact you are pulling the trigger at the bottom of the recoil cycle instead of sight alignment. Same thing happens to me in IDPA, have to force myself to slow down a bit.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Are you subconsciously tightening your grip as you speed up?

I've found that is a easier explanation than believing that you are are blowing pass the prep that consistently

 

[David E]

His grip should be just as tight rapid fire as it is slowfire.

If the sights are not aligned properly, he shouldn't pull the trigger.

If the sights are aligned but the shots go "inexplicably" low, he's flinching.

 

[BCRider]

His grip should be just as tight rapid fire as it is slowfire.

If the sights are not aligned properly, he shouldn't pull the trigger.

If the sights are aligned but the shots go "inexplicably" low, he's flinching.

You make it sound so easy and cut and dry. I'll grant you that it SHOULD be. But then we're all human and part of that is learning. Which is why he came here. To find out options for where he's going wrong.

On the flinch I guess you can call it what you will but with rapid fire other things besides the classic flinch factors come into play. Even if he's doing everything right and isn't flinching at all the natural recoil cycle of the gun playing with the tension in the hand and wrist muscles will produce an up, down then back up type of motion of the barrel.

If he's breaking your second point and pulling the trigger at the point where the gun is in the low part of that cycle then he'll hit low. This can occur even if he's not producing an actual muscle jerk that we consider to be a classic flinch. With slightly different timing he could just as easily be pulling the trigger for the second shot while the gun is still falling from the original recoil rise and producing high second shots.

But if this is the case of him pulling the trigger at the wrong point I'll grant you that he just broke your second point.

To Chris. A key to doing well in rapid fire is to follow the front sight with the eye and to time the second and subsequent shots only as the sight is moving back into alignment. Obviously it takes some practice. And an emphatic "NO" to altering the sights to try to compensate. The only modifications needed are in you, the shooter.

Rob Leatham has some videos that you can find online. Here's one on shooting plate rack targets;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PQ1wpUybHs

When I saw them a few weeks back one of them was on trigger control and sight control. He described how for shooting a plate rack he would follow the front sight during the recoil and move the pistol and his upper body over so that as the front sight returned to level he was on the next plate where he's pause for a split second to take that shot and use the recoil time to move to the next. This is a description of a shooter that is very much in tune with his skill and the gun he's shooting. It's also indicative of the level of skill that can come from lots of practice. At no time in these videos was any mention made of altering the sights or using them in any manner other than to center them on the target. That's the sort of "Zen" headspace you need to practice and work towards.

 

[David E]

Which is why he came here. To find out options for where he's going wrong.

He's going wrong by flinching. Slowfire, he can pay attention to the necessary details and take his time doing it. That's why he's spot-on slowfire. But when he starts going faster, he's not accelerating his focus, so he's flinching.

with rapid fire other things besides the classic flinch factors come into play. Even if he's doing everything right and isn't flinching at all the natural recoil cycle of the gun playing with the tension in the hand and wrist muscles will produce an up, down then back up type of motion of the barrel.

Is the goal to see how fast he pull the trigger, regardless of the sight picture, or how fast he can shoot accurately?. Because if it's the latter, he needs to visually confirm the sights before breaking the shot. This can be done very quickly, if your technique is good.

To Chris. A key to doing well in rapid fire is to follow the front sight with the eye and to time the second and subsequent shots only as the sight is moving back into alignment.

No, its not. It's good to see the sight lift off the target, but pointless to track it during its recoil arc. I don't care where the sight goes, only that it consistently returns to the same place.

Ron Leatham doesn't track the front sight thru it's entire arc, but he does see it lift off the target. Once he sees that, his eyes are looking ahead to the next target, not tracking the sight. He then confirms the sight is on the next target before making the shot.

Chris, get some snap caps and have someone else load your mags. When you are working on your rapid-fire and the gun goes CLICK on the dummy round, take note of where your muzzle went.

 

[murf]

the op said his group size doesn't change. not flinching (group would open up). he is probably squeezing the trigger with three fingers in rapid fire and only one finger in slow fire. could also be that durn little pinky finger getting a little squeeze time, too.

suggest first, stick the pinky finger straight out on your rapid fire string. if that doesn't help, just concentrate on squeezing the trigger without the help of the other two fingers.

just a thought.

murf

 

[MrBorland]

I don't think we have enough info to make a diagnosis on-line.

I agree that flinching (DavidE), grip (9mmEpiphany) and pulling the trigger slowly relative to muzzle dip (Chris in VA) are all possibilities. The last 2 are grip issues, and I'm inclined toward them. The last is also the result of just pulling the trigger at some predetermined cadence, regardless of sight picture.

Here's another good vid from The Great One on the matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLRxohRdIys&feature=player_embedded

 

[Owen]

I'm with 9mm. I think he's milking the grip.

 

[David E]

the op said his group size doesn't change. not flinching (group would open up).

Not if he has a consistent flinch, which isn't uncommon at all.

Snap caps will reveal what's happening.

 

[Ankeny]

If the sights aren't properly aligned, then he shouldn't be breaking the shot.

If a person rides the recoil and tracks the gun aggressively he/she can be bringing the gun back below the point of aim and sub-consciously breaking the shot. It's pretty common with trigger slapping split monsters. If one could magically slip a dud round into the magazine of many of our world class IPSC shooters, you shouldn't be surprised to see the muzzle dip when the firing pin hits the dud round if the shooter were driving the gun at warp drive on the typical hoser stages we see in vogue today. The dip is not a flinch in the normal sense.

 

[David E]

The dip is not a flinch in the normal sense.

Then we disagree on the definition of "flinch."

If the shooter "dips" without being aware of it, he's flinching. If he is dipping consciously in an attempt to arrest recoil, he's what we call "D" class or "Novice."

 

[Chris Rhines]

Thanks to all who have posted so far.

I might have been unclear in my initial description - when I said that my groups move down when shooting faster, I didn't mean that I was trying to decrease my split times. I meant that I was taking less time with the actual act of pressing the trigger. Instead of a slow, steady, Bullseye shooter's press, I was pressing the trigger straight to the rear, quickly, but smoothly.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not flinching or jerking the trigger. To test myself, I did a hundred dime drills (balancing a dime on the front sight, etc.) with a slow trigger press and another hundred with a quick trigger press. The dime never moved. I also broke out one of my laser-equipped pistols and did some dryfire, seeing if the dot moved any differently (not that I can tell.)

Gripping harder when pressing the trigger quickly is certainly possible. I'm planning on doing the Burkett timing drill at the range this Thursday, and we'll see if there's any difference in POI with the different grip pressures.

An instructor of my acquaintance suggested that I might be letting my front sight focus drift off into the midrange between the target and the front sight, and thus letting my sight picture drift down. Any thoughts?

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[9mmepiphany]

I find that when I do that, losing focus, I usually shoot a bit higher...I blame it on my tri-focals.

I'm thinking of trying a set of glasses with the focus inverted

 

[David E]

when I said that my groups move down when shooting faster, I didn't mean that I was trying to decrease my split times. I meant that I was taking less time with the actual act of pressing the trigger. Instead of a slow, steady, Bullseye shooter's press, I was pressing the trigger straight to the rear, quickly, but smoothly.

This means you're flinching.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not flinching or jerking the trigger. To test myself, I did a hundred dime drills (balancing a dime on the front sight, etc.) with a slow trigger press and another hundred with a quick trigger press. The dime never moved. I also broke out one of my laser-equipped pistols and did some dryfire, seeing if the dot moved any differently

All this means is, you're not flinching when you KNOW THE GUN IS EMPTY!!!! Have a friend load up a dummy round or two during LIVE FIRE and note what happens when you drop the hammer on it. THAT will tell you all you need to know. In the extremely unlikely event you consistently don't dip on the click, then we can move on to other possibilities.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again,
Chris

My thoughts are YOU'RE FLINCHING!

I'm amazed at all the suggestions saying you're doing everything BUT flinching. As I said before, it's a 99% chance you're flinching. Feel free to pursue that remaining 1%, but you'll continue to be puzzled and frustrated.

 

[BCRider]

As much as I feel that David E is on a single track I have to agree with him that the most likely cause is that you're flinching or in some way altering your grip in a "per shot" manner that produces a flinch like shift of the gun. It's not an easy thing to maintain an even grip when shooting. As mentioned more than once your best bet is to have a buddy load in a dummy reload or snap cap and then watch you for when you hit the dummy round for a muzzle dip.

If it's your grip that is altering with each shot such a thing won't show up in dry firing drills at all. As David says when dry firing you know it's not going to go BANG! so it's easy to be good.

 

[David E]

I'm not in a single track, just the most likely one.

Until the OP proves differently via the ball and dummy drill (not knowing when the dummy will come up) we are wasting our time speculating about the other 1% possibilities.

 

[Ankeny]

If the shooter "dips" without being aware of it, he's flinching. If he is dipping consciously in an attempt to arrest recoil, he's what we call "D" class or "Novice."

While the OP might be "flinching", I am simply suggesting it might be a timing issue, grip neutrality issue, or maybe even a fire control issue. I believe the OP is a Master class shooter and I think he would know if he were "flinching", blinking, etc. In the quest for speed, stuff happens. FWIW, I had the same issue as the OP when I first made GM and I still have the problem when I shoot in warp drive. I have had this discussion with several GM trigger slapping split monsters, including two National Champions, who have experienced the same issue. I guess we are all either flinching or we need to move down to D class.

 

[David E]

This may be one of those really obvious questions.......Should I re-zero my pistol so that it hits point of aim when shooting fast?

-C

These questions do not indicate a Master Class shooter.

Further, he clarified that he's NOT SHOOTING FAST SPLITS, he's merely pulling the trigger faster, but at a slow cadence. He's NOT going warp speed.

Ron, I don't know what you call a flinch, but this one is pretty obvious to me.