cheap way to simulate buckshot and magnum recoil?

[AcceptableUserName]

I am believer in training by repetition. I am like probably most everyone here and shoot mostly 7.5 shot as it's cheeeeeeap. But I would like to start shooting with heavier loads and denser shot to simulate more closely my gun's intended use - defense. Is there any cheap way to train with heavy shot or magnum loads? I NEVER shot buck or slugs...it's like gold to me. I hoard every bit I get. Any recommendations for cheap ammo that'll still pack a wallop and not throw out as many BB's? Does anyone sell remanufacture/reloaded magnum shells for cheap? The idea to make this thread dawned upon me today when I realized I didn't like the fact that I'm starting to forget what recoil from a 3 inch magnum really feels like.

 

[camoman33935]

three inch turkey loads pack i lil bit of a punch...havent bought any in a while so im not sure what the price is on it though...

 

[Rshooter]

Why would you be using 3 inch magnums for defense? Are you planning on getting attacked by bears? Really, most 2 3/4 buck and slugs will solve the issue of someone bent on doing you or your family harm. And if you can not do it with five or seven shells of 2 3/4 you most likely are in the wrong place.

Start practicing with and saving up 2 3/4 inch shells and that should help with your problem.

 

[ArmedBear]

Some Wolf Sporting Clays ammo is loaded really hot. Maybe not quite as hard-kicking as some buckshot loads, but it'll definitely wake you up.

It's cheap, and loaded with birdshot so you don't have to be as concerned about how far the pellets will go past your target, as you would with buck or slugs.

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=15

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I mix up 2 and 3/4" and 3" for defense. I prefer the 2 and 3/4" but if I could go out and shoot hundreds of 3" only to practice I would. It'd hurt, yeah, but it'd be a good way to stay sharp I'd think.

 

[ArmedBear]

Yeah, try the Wolf Sporting Clays at 1350 or 1460 FPS.

Cheap, relatively safe, and hard-kicking for practice.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

I'll check them out, thanks!

 

[Old Guard Dog]

Try reloading your own. Actually, you can reload without a loading press if you use a roll crimp tool for crimping, and load primed hulls. The only thing you will need beside this is a cheap beam scale to measure powder and shot. That would be the bare-bones way to go. A used reloading press like a MEC can be picked up pretty cheap.

Do get a good book on reloading and study it. You must follow receipes!! Ballistic Products is a good source for components. You can get primed hulls there. They also sell books on loading slugs and buckshot loads.

Beware!! Reloading is another hobby that becomes addictive.

 

[oneounceload]

You could always have a friend use a bat and hit you hard in the shoulder...


reload your own using birdshot; load a heavy field load

 

[Pete409]

I suggest that you keep practicing with mild 2 3/4" target loads. They are much cheaper and not as likely to induce bad shooting habits like lifting your head off the stock and flinching due to heavy recoil.

Believe me, I know LOTS of guy who develop bad habits due to recoil from shooting too much of even the mild target loads. The effects of recoil are cumulative on many (most) shooters. Many times you don't even realize that the recoil is affecting you until it's too late.

If the time actually comes during a home defense situation where you actually have to fire the 3" magnums, you'll be so pumped up with adrenalin that you won't feel a bit of the recoil.

 

[RyanM]

1 pellet of 00 = 54 gr. 437.5 gr = 1 oz.

So 9 pellets of 00 at 1325 fps = 1-1/8 oz, 3.5 dram eq. 12 pellets at 1290 fps = 1-1/2 oz, max dram eq.

 

[rbernie]

Heck, I just shoot the cheap buckshot from ammunitiontogo.com. My last batch of Rio low-recoil buck was around $150/250 rounds...

 

[Kind of Blued]

Heck, I just shoot the cheap buckshot from ammunitiontogo.com. My last batch of Rio low-recoil buck was around $150/250 rounds...

That's still three times the cost of practice loads.

To be honest, 2 3/4" loads are more than enough for self-defense against humans. Also, from what I've read, things like recoil and muzzle blast (noise) will be unnoticeable during such a serious situation.

Those points, on top of the fact that shooting heavy loads can engrain a flinch, make me think that simulating heavier loads for practice would do you more harm than good, both financially, and from a training perspective.

 

[Titan6]

Walmart slugs are 15/$9. A lot more than bird shot but a lot better too. If a slug can't handle your problem you need a bigger gun.

 

[nulfisin]

Slug for home defense?

If you've never fired one, they are like missiles. More than you'd need for any home defense situation, hard to aim (you do need to aim), and dangerous to everyone around you. Even bird shot is a better alternative. A blast of bird shot at close range makes for a very bad day for the bad guy. A missed shot with a slug makes him mad.

 

[SeekHer]

Over and over again, It does not matter what the ounce and a half load is; bird, buck or slug but the powder charge used to propel it...They all will recoil the same...

Goes back to the old question, what is heavier (not denser, not smaller or larger in size) a pound of steel or a pound of feathers and how much energy/force is required to initiate movement in that weight and to make it go the necessary distance!

Check your charts and find what the velocity and energy is for your intended defensive load and then find a cheaper product producing the same levels--that is only for recoil training, conditioning--

OF COURSE the effect on the target will be different but at typical HD ranges (<15 yds) spread really isn't a factor but penetration is...#12 will pepper them, #4 will hurt them, #BB will really hurt them--dead, #4 buck will kill them really dead and the bigger buck are just bigger pellets but far less in number and with slugs, you'll probably miss...If you're shooting slugs you might as well shoot a rifle or pistol...

Practice with the cheap shells then use the HD load for a couple of shots to see the pattern (spread)...Remember that the longest shot you're going to take--is in your house so measure what that is and practice that range--and of course closer like from your bed to the end of the hallway and to the end of your room...

Presented for your edification:

A CHOKES EFFECTIVE RANGE (Expressed in yards)
…………………….…IDEAL……....EFFECTIVE
CHOKE………....RANGE…........RANGE

Cylinder……….....15-22.........10-27
Skeet 1………….…20-27.........15-32
Imp Cylinder…...25-32.........20-37
Skeet 2…………...30-37.........25-42
Modified…………..35-42.........30-47
Imp Modified.....40-47.........35-52
Full…………..………45-52.........40-57
Extra Full………...50-57.........45–62

EFFECTIVE PATTERN DIMENSIONS (Express in Inches of Diameter)
YARDAGE……10…..20……25……30…..40
Spreader…….23…….27…….44…….51…….66
Cylinder……...20…….32…….38…….44…….57
Imp Cyl……….15…….26…….32…….38…….51
Modified………12…….20…….26…….32…….46
Full…………….. 09…….16…….21…….26…….40

Taken from NRA American Hunter Oct. 2006 Issue page 92

YARDAGE…..10…..15…..20…..25…..30…..35…..40…....45…..50
Full…..............10…..15….. 20…..25….. 30…..35…....40…....45…...50
Mod….............15…..20…...25…....30…...35…....40…..45…...50
I/C…...............20…..25…...30…....35…...40…..45…..50
Cyl…...............25…..30…...35…....40…...45…..50

From Beretta Arms

As you can see the differences are slight, could be the amount of powder, size of wad, with or without a shot cup, size of shot cup, between the two different reports...

At ten yards it's like tossing a softball or basketball down the hallway...

It's 1" to 1 yard on FULL choke not cylinder...

And it don't matter whether you use buck or bird the expansion will be about the same...Yes, buck will spread more but an insignificant amount at 10 yards

When the spread becomes to open it will allow a clay target or a live bird to fly through unscathed...


American Diameter # Pellets
Sizes........ (inches).....per oz.

0000 buck….0.38……...04
000 buck…...0.36.…....06.25
00 buck….....0.33….....08.13
0 buck.…......0.32..…...09
1 buck…..... 0.30….. 10.6
2 buck…..... 0.27….. 12.5
3 buck…..... 0.25….. 18
4 buck…..... 0.24….. 20.3
F…............. 0.22….. 28.1
TT………… .... 0.21….. 29.5
T…............. 0.20….. 31.3
BBB…......... 0.19….. 43.8
BB…........... 0.18….. 46.5
B…............. 0.17….. 50
Bird
1…............. 0.16….... 70.8
2…............. 0.15….... 93.8
3…………….... 0.14……113
4…………….... 0.13……130

Shot... Diameter..................Pellets in
...........(in).........1 Oz....7/16 Oz....1/2 Oz....11/16 Oz
4…..... 0.12….......170….......74…..........85…........117
5…..... 0.11….......220….......96….......110…........151
6…..... 0.10……....270...…..118…........135…........186
7…..... 0.095….....340….....149…........170…........234
7.5….. 0.09….. ....400….....175......…..200…........275
8…..... 0.085….....450….....197......…..225…........309
9…..... 0.08….. ....580….....254…........290…........399


Bore........Bore
Size.......Diameter
..............(inches)
04.............1.052
08.............0.835
10.............0.775
12.............0.729
16.............0.663
20.............0.615
24.............0.579
28.............0.550
32.............0.526
36.............0.506
67.............0.411
68.............0.409

SHOT SHELL SIZES
INCH.........MM
3.50..........88.90
3.00..........76.20
2.75..........69.85
2.625........66.675 = 2 5/8"
2.50..........63.50
2.25..........57.15
2.00..........50.80

Convert inches to mm x by 25.4---mm to inch x by .0394---

Longest continuous string in competition
American Skeet Assoc. Records
Bore...Men....Woman
12….... 2462….... 1183
20….... 2173…..... 801
28….... 1718…..... 443
410….... 777…..... 265
Dbls…... 710…..... 259

Information Sites to specific bores

16 Gauge Society
410 Shotgun Resources

Brought to your attention by: KNOW THY ENEMY™©

 

[Carne Frio]

Try shooting with recoil pad removed or replaced with one made of hard plastic and wear only a light shirt.

 

[oneounceload]

And make sure your health insurance covers shoulder surgery when you get older......recoil hurts, but the cumulative effect of recoil is even worse

 

[BCRider]

Having shot some regular slug and a few magnum slugs at things like old motorcycle helmets and a buddy's old computer I can tell you that there is NO need for magnum slugs. Regular slugs will do all you want and need in any HD situation that needs a slug. A Magnum slug is just way, way over the top unless you're planning on blowing up the car/truck as they are trying to drive away

Next up is to read and agree with SeekHer's post. It doesn't matter to your shoulder if you're spitting out a slug or 8/9 balls of buck or a spoonfull of birdshot, they all KICK the same with the same powder load. The Turkey loads would simulate the Magnum loads well enough.

There's a more important issue though. If you're going to rely on buck or slug rounds for an HD situation you need to shoot a bunch of it and get to know it, how it patterns at various ranges and to learn to aim properly with the slugs.

You need to shoot the buck to know how it patterns, what ranges you can expect to see 100% COM groupings with the buck, the range where you can expect 2/3 patterning on the COM and where the limit for buck is where you can only expect 2 or 3 balls in the COM of the bad guy. You need to shoot the buck rounds for this enough to really get to know and appreciate these distances. Even before pulling the trigger judge the distance and tell yourself how many balls you expect in the COM and THEN pull the trigger and see if you're right. Even after you've got this decently down pat it's something you want to use a couple or three rounds of buck a week or month on varying distance targets between 2 yards and 15 yards just to keep your pattern senses sharp.

Knowing how far out you can EFFECTIVELY reach with the buck you now know where it's valid to switch to slugs if they aren't leaving but instead seem to want to do you. But even here regular reduced recoil slugs will take out a deer nicely out to what? 100yards? A regular "reduced recoil" slug will even pass through a wall or fence and do the bad guy so again you really don't need magnum slugs other than for punching through a car, the BG and out the other side again. A Magnum slug is quite capable of passing thru your house and the next door house and perhaps even part way through the one after. Do you really want that sort of penetration on your conscience when a regular slug is easily capable of doing the badguy through a wall already? Buck is the same way. Regular power buck will easily go through a wall or a door and take out the BG hiding on the other side. Why do you want to do more than that?

You just can't simulate shooting slugs. There's just no replacement for it. You need to set some targets out at 25 and 40 yards and shoot at them with slugs and see where the slugs hit. And because they lift the barrel differently you need to practice with the slugs you'll be using when things go bad. You'll want to start with careful sighting at first and get to where you can raise the gun, sight the target and snap off a shot that hits where it's supposed to hit without exposing you for any longer than needed. And THAT skill takes time and lots of shooting and it can't be replicated with birdshot. When you can shoot them well enough to get consistent COM hits at 15 yards from fast snap shots then you're in and you just need the occasional practice shot or three.

But this is one place where you may be able to do something about the expense. I do believe there are .22 or centerfire inserts that can be fit into the shotgun barrels to allow you to shoot centerfire rounds with cheaper ammo. Assuming the insert for .22 or .38Spl isn't stupidly heavy to where it alters your lift and aim this would be an excellent practice method. Or if you could buy a basic .22 and modify it to feel like it has the same bulk and feel as your HD shotgun that could help a lot with this aspect. Shooting these would also do wonders for learning to avoid flinching. But again you'll need to back this practice up by shooting at least a few slugs a month to make sure you're ready for them.

More importantly is you need to learn to switch from buck to slug and back again quickly, smoothly and naturally under stress without dropping the shells. This is one aspect where you CAN practice with the cheap target loads or even dummies. I'd suggest getting a couple of brands that have different color shells. Call one color your "buck" and the other your "slugs". Now you need to learn the techniques for dumping and reloading to be able to chamber a slug on demand and then dump the slug out again for when the situation changes suddenly.

The other drill in all this is to constantly keep topping up your magazine. Shotguns are notoriously slow to reload so it's important to top up whenever the risk allows for it. Doing drills where you shoot one shell, reload, two shells, reload, two shells, reload, one shell, reload, three shells, reload, etc, etc is a good way to learn this. Before reloading though there needs to be a pause to asses the situation. You don't want to be halfway into stuffing a shell and suddenly need to shoot.

You need to do these drills a lot and do them to where you time yourself. Shooting at the range with a match timer would be a great way to do this. At the beep you unshoulder, switch out for a "slug", shoulder, aim and fire. Then check the time and try to do it faster. The timer stress is a poor substitute for the adrenaline that'll be flowing in a real situation but it's all you can get without having someone trying to shoot back at you or knife you.

It also suggests that your actual HD buck and slug rounds should have different colors that you can see in almost total darkness so there's no mistakes and that you stick with buying that one brand or brands that all have the same colors.


Where'd I learn all this? I took a two day course on police/tactical shotgun use. This is the Reader's Digest version for you. But the key message here is that you won't learn to do all this by just shooting bird loads and feeling the recoil. Recoil means less than nothing to all this. During a real situation the last thing you'll be thinking about or worrying about is recoil. But the real lessons, the CRITICAL lessons you'll only learn by shooting and knowing the actual ammo you'll be using in a situation.

It also suggests that you'd be far better off signing up for your own course and learn all this first hand. It is money well spent and is an excellent trade for a few cases of ammo.

 

[Virginian]

Unless you go to 3-1/2", the allowable maximum pressure, which determines how fast the payload will go, is the same. The reason for 3" was so you could get more shot in the casing along with the powder and wad. The only reason I could ever see for 3" slugs was more profit.