Chipotle vs Tools for Dissent

[conw]

Edit: after a discussion with a mod the title of this thread was changed to reflect that it is not simply a discussion of Chipotle or Jerry Miculek's statements on the matter but also a discussion about how members of the gun community can appropriately and effectively speak out against ineffective, ill conceived, counterproductive actions by "activists" such as the recent Chipotle fiasco.

Please be polite and civil so we can keep the thread open. Also, I hope everyone will at least skim the posts by me and Frank Ettin on the topic prior to replying. This is a serious subject worth contemplating.

Let's start with a perspective voiced by Jerry Miculek, someone I admire. Reading what he wrote inspired me to start this thread.



The shot is of his post today on Facebook. It is obviously in response to Chipotle "going Starbucks."

What's interesting is that over 3000 "likes" and counting in just 4-5 hours is a phenomenal outpouring.

(edit: now a few hours later closer to 4k likes)

I have to say I agree as well. I think that many "open carry activists" are stubborn enough that they may continue to cause us to lose these skirmishes by taking the hard line, so I'm going to continue to be outspoken that

-open carry is a right just like all carry/bearing of arms

-just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea in every circumstance

-I am 100% in favor of all gun rights and take a libertarian (lower case "L") position on almost everything, but I will be outspoken that hard line open carry demonstrators do not represent me, nor the majority of gun owners

-there is no divide and conquer going on because I am not budging one inch on any gun related issue as pertains to legal or judicial concerns or otherwise, I am simply sick of people with obvious poor judgment claiming to represent me

I thought about posting this in the Activism forum but I am not sure it would fit. However I do have a proposed plan for anyone who agrees with me:

If you agree with what I've written above, you need to loudly and consistently broadcast to BOTH open carry demonstrators AND everyday people/neutral parties that

-you are fully in favor of gun rights
-you do not agree with the tactics of open carry demonstrators
-open carry demonstrators should no longer claim to represent the majority of gun owners

If you choose to do this please be civil and stand firm in your opinion. Emphasize that you are just as much for our second amendment rights as anyone, including open carrying, but you disagree with and disapprove of open carry as a primary method of activism. It is critical that you speak out and express yourself but do not give anyone the impression that you disagree with gun rights.

Here's the plan

1) when you have time, express your own views on this important topic in your own words in a place where open carry activists and/or neutral parties who aren't currently involved in the gun community are likely to see it

2) be resolute, firm, and consistent going forward: speak up politely whenever you get a chance if you feel, as I do, that a small fringe group of activists can't claim to represent you, and don't be afraid to point out if you think they're doing things that are counterproductive to our cause. Keep the message short and succinct and don't get dragged into arguments.

3) stay positive, keep up the battle with various forms of outward facing activism, and continue to donate to NRA-ILA (et al) and your gun organizations of choice

Again I STRONGLY suggest not getting involved in debates. As has been noted very few people are undecided and wasting hours debating with strangers online is a terrible waste of time. It is probably best to simply speak up and stop worrying about being accused of being secretly anti freedom or anti gun. Sadly, casting these aspersions is a common tactic but it simply doesn't hold up.

If you don't agree with what i wrote by all means reply here, but please be civil so the thread can stay open.

 

[heycods]

I take the same stand. We have made lots of progress in Texas since original concealed carry was passed. The activist are doing more harm than the gains we have made in last few year, good things were in the works in Austin, I fear all they are doing is stirring up the Libs to take a stronger stand. OK turning my back now and let the backstabbing begin.

 

[conw]

I take the same stand. We have made lots of progress in Texas since original concealed carry was passed. The activist are doing more harm than the gains we have made in last few year, good things were in the works in Austin, I fear all they are doing is stirring up the Libs to take a stronger stand. OK turning my back now and let the backstabbing begin.

Thanks for replying. I have a feeling a lot of us feel this way. Please keep speaking out.

 

[heycods]

Remains to be seen if 3006 sign will be posted, if it is you wont see me there. Thanks Open Carry
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-chipotle-guns-20140519-story.html
The issue of gun ownership or gun rights has become one of the most contentious debates in the country. Chipotle has never taken a position on this issue, as we focus instead on our mission to change the way people think about and eat fast food.

Recently participants from an “open carry” demonstration in Texas brought guns (including military-style assault rifles) into one of our restaurants, causing many of our customers anxiety and discomfort. Because of this, we are respectfully asking that customers not bring guns into our restaurants, unless they are authorized law enforcement personnel.

Historically, we felt it enough to simply comply with local laws regarding the open or concealed carrying of firearms, because we believe that it is not fair to put our team members in the uncomfortable position of asking that customers refrain from bringing guns into our restaurants. However, because the display of firearms in our restaurants has now created an environment that is potentially intimidating or uncomfortable for many of our customers, we think it is time to make this request.

We acknowledge that there are strong arguments on both sides of this issue. We have seen those differing positions expressed in the wake of this event in Texas, where pro-gun customers have contacted us to applaud our support of the Second Amendment, and anti-gun customers have expressed concern over the visible display of military-style assault rifles in restaurants where families are eating. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible citizens and we appreciate them honoring this request. And we hope that our customers who oppose the carrying of guns in public agree with us that it is the role of elected officials and the legislative process to set policy in this area, not the role of businesses like Chipotle.

We always welcome the exchange of ideas and opinions: it is one of the many things that make our country such a special place. But this issue is not central to the operation of our business, and we do not feel that our restaurants should be used as a platform for either side of the debate.

 

[Kanzenbach1]

I think the people that OC an ar-15 just want attention. Just open carry a handgun if you want to make a point or else people see it as irresponsible or stupid.

 

[conw]

I think the people that OC an ar-15 just want attention. Just open carry a handgun if you want to make a point or else people see it as irresponsible or stupid.

I appreciate you speaking out. Keep it up please, this opinion needs to be aired where people can see it. Don't forget to remind people that (I hope) you are 100% pro gun but are tired of people who engage in this type of "activism" claiming to represent you. The message must be crystal clear.

 

[BSA1]

A Right not exercised is a Right lost.

 

[heycods]

I think the people that OC an ar-15 just want attention. Just open carry a handgun if you want to make a point or else people see it as irresponsible or stupid.

Open carry of handgun is banned in Texas by an amendment to the constitution in the 1870s by the carpetbagger govt that was then in place. You can legaly Open carry a replica or pre 1898 handgun.Or that is my understanding. Even that I would be hard pressed to do in a busy resturant after the Lubys shooting. Myself I hope everyone in Lubys if I go there is Concealed carrying.
I see no point in making Grannie nervous while she is eating her soup, she mite ruin her new dress.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A Right not exercised is a Right lost.

A nonsensical cliche, and demonstrably not true.

If enough people do something that's legal but they do it in a way that enough other people find obnoxious, the activity might not stay legal for long.

• In the late 1960s in California, the Black Panthers openly carrying guns resulted in the open carry of loaded guns being made illegal. And a few years ago, demonstrations involving the open carrying or unloaded guns resulted in that being made illegal.
  
  
• See this post 6 regarding the history of the loss in Florida of the right to openly carry in this thread on another forum.
  
  
• There are plenty of examples of rights being lost because enough folks didn't like the ways in which they were being exercised. Over the years, in many communities, we have seen many zoning and other laws adopted restricting how you can use your own property. In some places you may not work on your car in your own driveway in view of the public street. In some places you must get design approval of remodeling or landscaping visible to the public. In some communities, you may not park or store large vehicles like boats on trailers or RVs on your property so as to be visible to the public. These sorts of restrictions have in large part been the result of strong enough public sentiment that some things previously lawfully done by private parties on their own land were unseemly or unattractive.

If a lot of people start legally open carrying their guns hoping to achieve a particular political result, we can reasonably expect a range of responses from, "Cool" to "Yawn" to "A nut with a gun; there ought to be a law." What the distribution is will decide whether openly carrying is politically helpful or politically harmful. But we can't know whether open carrying is doing any political good without having a better idea of that distribution. And the distribution will probably be different in different places at different times.

This is not about open carry. This is about --

1. ill conceived open carry demonstrations for political purposes;
   
   
2. inappropriate, exhibitionist gun handling in public;band
   
   
3. pushing a disinterested, neutral third part to take an action which does not reflect well on gun owners.

I'm increasingly appalled by the failure of so many in the RKBA community to recognize the importance of positively influencing public opinion or to have any real clue about to do that.

 

[PowerG]

Since the open carry statute was changed in Mississippi last year, I'd guess the number of gun signs has increased ten-fold. These signs also prohibit concealed carry by permit holders, and many of the business operators don't understand the difference. You could count on one hand the people I have seen open carrying in town. Not making any kind of judgment either way, just some observations.

 

[heycods]

Very well stated Frank. Wish I was an eloquent feller with them words.

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

Very well stated Frank. Wish I was an eloquent feller with them words.

I would agree with Frank, as well. I'd just add that the vast majority of these so-called "open carry activists" strongly appear to be nothing more than publicity-seeking individuals of highly questionable intellect. (And they're certainly no one with whom I care to be associated.)

 

[GoWolfpack]

I wonder if this thread will go down the same path as the last 100 threads on open carry.


Some "pro gun" folks seem to get more upset over open carry than antis.

 

[BSA1]

Frank,

While I disagree in part with your comment about the Black Panthers I agree that good judgement should always accompany a action regardless if it is as simple as slowing down in traffic or open carry in certain places.

While we agree more than we disagree what is the point of having a right of it is never exercised? The States failing to exercise their Rights in the 10th Amendment for decades has created massive unfuded mandates and expansive regulations using such things as the commerce clause.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I think Jerry Michyulahk has a good point!

Sometimes they might be doing more harm than good!

 

[Art Eatman]

Passing an open-carry law is a hearts-and-minds political deal. Open-carry demonstrations create more bad PR than good vibes--and legislators pay more attention to noise levels than to facts on this sort of issue.

Rights, right-or-wrong, safety, yada, yada, yada: Don't mean squat when soccer moms and newsies fuss against such "evil danger".

 

[627PCFan]

Threads like this show just how divided we are as a group. Same as "national concealed carry reciprocity". I cringe every time.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...what is the point of having a right of it is never exercised?...

1. As I pointed out, this is not about exercising a right. It's about a form of political demonstration, presumably for the purposes of having a positive influence on the RKBA. But these sorts of demonstrations have consistently failed to accomplish anything worthwhile and will predictably fail in the future.
   
   
2. And it has in fact been the case that exercising rights in ways found obnoxious by too many people have resulted in rights being lost or circumscribed.
   
   
3. As John Adams said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” The expectation is for people to use good judgment and good manners in the exercise of rights.

 

[barnbwt]

Being a jackass =/= activism, though activism often = being obnoxious. Hard for some people to distinguish the two, both in action and perception . There were plenty of jackasses during the Civil Rights movement protests on both sides, too.

TCB

 

[alsaqr]

Some "pro gun" folks seem to get more upset over open carry than antis.

With some good reason, stupid political statements like those guys in TX made caused folks who were neutral on gun rights to take a stand against us.

Guys who openly carry long guns into restraunts and other pubic places are making fence sitters into anti-gunners.

i'm appalled at the number of gunowners on these boards who defend ill informed guys who make political statements with guns.

 

[barnbwt]

"Open-carry demonstrations create more bad PR than good vibes"
Well, stupid in your face ones, at least. Seriously, would any protest in a space as small as a Chipotle be well-received? I think I'd be irritated by Girl Scouts pushing cookies on the people in line as well.

Lots of folks forget these are guns we're talking about; no one likes having a gun shoved in their face (or anything, really). Outdoor organized protests with slung (not shouldered/ready; see again "in your face") rifles have been either neutrally or well received in Texas that I'm aware of. No NDs or arrests that I'm aware of. No cops called in to stop the militia.

But when two idiots (and let's be honest; you could spot them as idiots two blocks away), come in, most likely carousing and annoying anyone who will pay them attention with garbled talking points, and just generally making a scene in a closed-in environment where people are trying to eat --I can understand people's negative reaction, and Chipotle's desire to bar these idiots' return

Odds on these guys coming off as George and Lenny from Of Mice and Men...

TCB

 

[short barrel]

I don't open carry, but I'm in favor of keeping that right. Con makes valid points.

 

[MisterMike]

I have to agree with the sentiments of the OP. People like this lack the common sense and judgment to effectively advocate for expansive Second Amendment rights:



It's cringeworthy. Even more so, because their stupidity negatively impacts the rest of us.

 

[conw]

I wonder if this thread will go down the same path as the last 100 threads on open carry.


Some "pro gun" folks seem to get more upset over open carry than antis.

I don't want to get too "meta" here as far as discussing the discussion but I do want to point out I've never once seen anyone who was pro CC even remotely argue for outlawing OC. If you have, I'm sure you'd still agree that's incredibly rare to the point it doesn't really merit much mention.

And yet... As a rhetorical strategy hard line OCer demonstrators constantly accuse people advocating for prudence of just that. They claim to detect underlying intentions that amount to anti gun views among outspoken gun rights advocates who happen to criticize them.

That is ridiculous and in my opinion largely responsible for any perceived divide (such as the stated perception 627pcfan posting earlier in the thread).

If someone says "I support the right to open carry, period" their word should be taken at face value (else there's no point even having a discussion); if they happen to have some kind of criticism regarding specific actions taken by individuals who happen to be open carrying, it is rather disingenuous of the demonstrators to constantly attempt to use accusations as a rhetorical wedge.

That's part of why I posted this, because these rhetorical strategies are definitely baffling and few people have the time to come up with a reasoned counter argument and as a result withdraw and, I imagine, decide to avoid the topic altogether.

More importantly I want to do my part to give people some tools to consistently speak out against these ill conceived (well said Frank) demonstrations and be heard.

Thanks for sharing your views Gowolfpack - I'm sure you're genuine - but i strongly disagree with your equating people who happen to have a nuanced and pragmatic view of how to conduct pro gun demonstrations with anti-gun activists. Perhaps in the future you'll kindly reconsider.

 

[scaatylobo]

An invite to be shot

I see the 2 morons that created this stir as the "poster children" for getting shot on sight.

Any sane person would think that they were up to no good,at least that is how I would view them.

And the very least I would do is RETREAT asap,with all loved ones in tow ---- IF we were "allowed" to leave.

If they acted as they looked,I would not be surprised to need suppressive ACCURITE rounds on target to leave.

If that is "over reacting" then I guess I am not used to being around RECKLESS people carrying guns in a manner that I see as a threat.

I still will not go to Chipotle's as I went there once and it was lousy.

Besides I carry CONCEALED,so they did not know.