Choice of new .45acp duty/carry ammunition.....

[RustyShackelford]

I was going over the specs/ballistics of a few well known .45acp brands.
I am looking at the Winchester Ranger T(T Series) .45acp +P 230gr, the Federal HST +P 230gr, and the Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +P.
I considered the Remington Golden Saber 230gr +P JHP, Speer Gold Dot 230gr +P & the Corbon DPX .45acp JHP but I'm leaning towards a new box of Winchester Ranger T(T Series) .45acp JHP +P.

I might buy a box(50rd) of Ranger T(bonded) or maybe Corbon PowRball for my spare-back up .45acp magazines.
What input would you THRers have?
NOTE: this is for duty(barrier-FBI protocol passing) not general carry-personal protection.

Rusty
www.shopcorbon.com www.hornady.com www.winchesterLE.com www.remingtonLE.com

 

[LiveLife]

If you are not law enforcement, you may need to prepare a response as to how you came to possess them - http://www.policehq.com/Products/W-RA45TP

The Winchester Ranger line of ammunition is a restricted item and is not available to the general public.

Besides, why do you need "law enforcement" Ranger T 230 gr +P when Speer GD 200 gr/Remington GS 185 gr +P ammunition produce higher muzzle velocities/energies? I did like the "Black Talon" ammunition and also like the Winchester's latest version PDX1 for 380Auto and waiting on 185 gr offering for 45ACP.

For "civilian" ammunition, I like Speer Gold Dot/Remington Golden Saber JHP and prefer 185 gr over 230 gr bullet weight for higher muzzle energies.

I buy factory JHP ammunition from SGAmmo and they usually have the lowest prices on Speer GD/Remington GS and other premium JHP ammunition - http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/45-auto-acp

Winchester Ranger 230 gr bonded JHP:
Muzzle Velocity: 935 fps
Muzzle Energy: 446 ft lbs

Winchester Ranger T 230 gr +P JHP:
Muzzle velocity: 985 fps
Muzzle energy: 495 ft/lbs

Speer Gold Dot 185 gr HP:
Muzzle velocity: 1050 fps
Muzzle energy: 435 ft/lb

Speer Gold Dot 200 gr +P JHP:
Muzzle Velocity: 1080 fps
Muzzle Energy: 518 ft/lbs

Remington Golden Saber 185 gr JHP:
Muzzle velocity: 1015 fps
Muzzle energy: 423 ft/lbs

Remington Golden Saber 185 gr +P JHP:
Muzzle Velocity: 1140 fps
Muzzle Energy: 534 ft/lbs

 

[RustyShackelford]

230gr +P.....

I know & Im aware of the lighter .45acp rounds, but I prefer the LE grade 230gr +P .45acp rounds for duty use.
I found a good source for Winchester Ranger T 230gr +P JHP(T Series). It's not cheap but a 50rd box of Ranger T/T Series can be toted for a long time, .

A secondary reason for using Ranger T/HST is that it's in regular, documented use by sworn US law enforcement. A valid argument could be made saying "you are a wanna-be" or "police fanatic" but legal experts like Massad Ayoob could quickly explain to a "jury of your peers" how these rounds are T&Eed or why US police agencies select them.

FWIW; I got a 50rd box of Critical Duty +P 220gr in 2013. I have no issue with them & would suggest it to any .45acp owner but I wanted to try a new LE load.

Rusty

 

[LiveLife]

If you were looking for the most effective round, question could be asked why you chose 495 ft/lbs 230 gr Ranger T over 518 ft/lbs 200 gr Gold Dot or 534 ft/lbs 185 gr Golden Saber.

Or do you absolutely have to have the 230 gr bullet weight? And why?

A valid argument could be made saying "you are a wanna-be" or "police fanatic" but legal experts like Massad Ayoob could quickly explain to a "jury of your peers" how these rounds are T&Eed or why US police agencies select them

Justified shooting is justified shooting, regardless what type of ammunition was used, even reloads if that's all you had to defend yourself with.

 

[Panzerschwein]

If you were looking for the most effective round, question could be asked why you chose 495 ft/lbs 230 gr Ranger T over 518 ft/lbs 200 gr Gold Dot or 534 ft/lbs 185 gr Golden Saber.

Pure muzzle energy often has little to do with the effectivness of bullets in a particular caliber vs. others. Things like the correct expansion to penetration ration are much more important than just relying on higher energy numbers. If that energy isn't being used efficiently, you could run into problems like overpenetration etc. etc. Likewise, a cartridge with lower muzzle energy can still be highly effective if it can penetrate deeply enough while still giving good expansion.

All I'm saying is the OP may well have a valid reason for wanting the heavier 230 bullet, even though it may have less muzzle energy, it might still strike that balance of penetration and expansion the others lack.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes I get that.

But here's rub. I heard the same argument for 40S&W where many prefer the heavier 180 gr bullet over 165 gr.

So if 180 gr JHP doing 1000 fps is better, isn't larger diameter and slightly heavier 185 gr JHP doing 1050-1140 fps even better? Relatively speaking?

I imagine the larger diameter and cavity will help with expansion of the bullet to better transfer the energy.

 

[FLNT4EVR]

I stay with 230grn no matter what bullet configuration I'm shooting. it makes for less sight adjustment, and 230grn bullets just plain get the job done, weather they expand or not.

 

[Hangingrock]

bds-If you are not law enforcement, you may need to prepare a response as to how you came to possess them

The manufacture may stipulate it is a restricted item for their sales purposes. If there are please reference applicable law/laws Federal, State, and Municipal which apply.

 

[moxie]

I like the HST, GD or GS in 230 NON +P.

 

[Drail]

The 200 gr. Speer Gold Dot is pretty darn close to what Browning was wanting for a .45 ACP cartridge. (that would be my choice). But the Ordnance experts wanted a 230 gr.

 

[LiveLife]

Hangingrock, that statement is from the website where the Ranger T ammunition is sold. I am not sure if that is on the ammunition box - http://www.policehq.com/Products/W-RA45TP

The Winchester Ranger line of ammunition is a restricted item and is not available to the general public.

One thing is for certain - if you are involved in a shooting where you are charged, your firearm and ammunition box may be taken by the police for evidence. If such statement is on the ammunition box, questions may be asked how and where you obtained the ammunition and why.

I am not sure, there may not be any law that prohibits me from purchasing or possessing law enforcement ammunition. For me, I rather not subject myself to any potential "restricted ammunition" issues.

 

[riceboy72]

Self imposed manufacturer restriction but not illegal to possess, use, or shoot unless your state explicitly bans specific ammunition. I prefer and use the 230 gr. HST and Ranger T and have had flawless reliability and excellent accuracy with it.

 

[Hangingrock]

This is not meant to argumentative but rather a viewpoint of differing opinion.

I have 45ACP+P and 9mmLuger+P, both are Speer LE so marked “LAW ENFORCEMENT GOLD DOT DUTY AMMUNITION”. There are no restrictions in regards to Law Enforcement use only.

I also have 38 Special +P+ Winchester Ranger LAW ENFORCEMENT AMMUNITION so marked “FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY NOT FOR RETAIL SALE PRESSURE LEVELS EXCEED INDUSTRY STANDARD” I believe it is so marked for liability concerns as a Law Enforcement Agency contractual purchasing agreement would cover clauses concerning usage. In other words it is CYA wording.

On the other hand I have an early production S&W-M640 that is marked “TESTED For +P+” so the 38 Special +P+ Winchester Ranger is within acceptable usage even thou the standard is vague. The law enforcement marking I don’t see as being a problematic issue.

 

[zerobarrier]

I have the Winchester T series 230gr hp +p, bought them at my local store. That is a manufacturer restriction, not backed by any state laws- at least here in PA. There isn't even any restrictions on the dreaded "Black Talon ammo" which is of course the same thing as the Winchester t series with a different name and not a black projectile, man I guess the word and color black just scares people.

Even incendiary rounds are legal, to a point. I have 40 starburst rds for my 45acp, when they hit something hard like metal you see a bright flash and what looks like sparks, that's the phosphorous.

 

[moxie]

As a general rule, the only real difference is that the "law enforcement" ammo is packed in 50 round boxes and costs less.

 

[LiveLife]

OK, so looks like "restriction" on Ranger T ammunition is only imposed by Winchester.

I take back what I posted earlier.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #4.....

I don't agree with post #4.
I suggest researching AZ vs Fish, the Harold Fish incident.

What type of ammunition you use can be a factor in a criminal or civil court trial. Read a few articles or blog posts by Massad Ayoob. He's been in the US court system for decades & teaches working cops/CCW license holders.

I would not use hand loads or reloads for duty or defense either.

 

[moxie]

Mas usually recommends using the same ammo the police use.

The assumption is the police use what's safe and effective.

 

[RussellC]

Hangingrock, that statement is from the website where the Ranger T ammunition is sold. I am not sure if that is on the ammunition box - http://www.policehq.com/Products/W-RA45TP

One thing is for certain - if you are involved in a shooting where you are charged, your firearm and ammunition box may be taken by the police for evidence. If such statement is on the ammunition box, questions may be asked how and where you obtained the ammunition and why.

I am not sure, there may not be any law that prohibits me from purchasing or possessing law enforcement ammunition. For me, I rather not subject myself to any potential "restricted ammunition" issues.

That's likely just their position. The Hornady Critical duty says "For law enforcement use only" but its for sale most everywhere I buy bullets. They are in my 30S. By the way, the small primer .45 brass shot great, used the Tulas again, all fired.

Russellc

 

[LiveLife]

I don't agree with post #4 ... I would not use hand loads or reloads for duty or defense either.

BTW, I use factory JHP ammunition for SD/HD purposes and they happened to be Speer Gold Dot/Remington Golden Saber/Winchester PDX1.

As to using reloads for SD/HD, this has been discussed to death on multiple threads (even with Masaad Ayoob participating) and in the end, justified shooting is justified shooting, whether factory or reloads are used - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724791

Mas usually recommends using the same ammo the police use.

The assumption is the police use what's safe and effective.

Actually, his comments were in line with ammunition police use have been/can be tested with predictable performance, residue pattern, etc. not necessarily because they are safe/effective. That's why police would take into evidence actual pistol/ammunition used in the shooting to duplicate the performance of the pistol/ammunition.

Many police department used 9mm FMJ ammunition and just because the local policed used them, I would hardly qualify them to be "effective" for SD/HD and rather use +P JHP ammunition instead.

 

[LiveLife]

BTW, here's a 230 gr vs 185 gr +P comparison video:

1:20 - 45ACP Remington GS 185 gr +P JHP - 1036 fps impact velocity

1:57 - 45ACP Remington GS 230 gr JHP - 749 fps impact velocity

[YOUTUBE]bqziWTq7X1c[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Mr.510]

I carry 230 grain HST +Ps. This is how they do fired into soggy phone books. All 20 rounds fired penetrated within 1/2" of 14" and all expanded fully. They measure a bit over 7/8" diameter across the tips.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post 22, Winchester Ranger T/T Series, .45acp ....

Those post #22 pics are impressive.
I still prefer the ballistics of the Ranger T/T Series .45acp line.
The KE level is high & the vel at the muzzle is fast for my needs.
There's nothing wrong with the ATK/Federal HST 230gr JHP +P, Critical Duty, DPX or Speer Gold Dot +P 230gr JHP.

For discussion purposes, the city's PD where I live/work, uses the Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP(SIG P226R/P229R), the large sheriff's office uses the Glock 21 .45acp(moving slowly to the generation 04) with the Speer Good Dot 230gr JHP, the state troopers use the Glock 22 .40S&W gen 04; duty round unknown. The Highway Patrol got rooked by Glock USA into the idiotic rope-a-dope with the .45GAP, , but smarter heads prevailed & Glock cut a deal to switch to the new 22 .40S&W.


I read(and was informed by a good source) that the PA state troopers went with the "new" SIG Sauer P227R TDA(traditional double action) in the summer of 2014, after a brief switch to the 21 generation 04 series. They were packing the .45GAP caliber for about 3/4 years. Ammunition brand unknown.

 

[Mr.510]

I have no doubt any of the mentioned loads would be a great choice. I seriously doubt swapping any round mentioned for any other would make any difference at all in an actual gunfight. I picked HSTs because they have very little muzzle flash and were the least likely of the quality defense rounds to plug with heavy clothing at the time. I was able to buy one crate of whatever pistol carry ammo I wanted wholesale, and picked .45ACP HST +P. It was ~$11 a box.

 

[JTQ]

You are splitting hairs between probably the top 10 (or practically any) .45 Auto rounds.

There is little difference between 9MM, .40 S&W, and .45 Auto. The difference within the .45 Auto family of ammo is even smaller.

Find a well regarded hollow point, that you can get quantities of, at a price you are willing to pay, that works in your gun (feeds and is accurate), and you'll be fine.