Cimarron - TRUE Single Shot :-(

[GJeffB]

Cimarron 1874 Porting Rifle Sharps falling block .45-70. Brand new, received last week or so, first range session today.
Load round 1, fire, eject. Load round 2. Lever won't close, block rises slightly, hangs on the rim, cartridge chambered. Pulled the lever pin and lever, block still hangs on the rim. I removed the fore end and further inspection shows the barrel is loose! As in perhaps an 1/8th of an inch in both directions of the witness mark. Finally tapped the round out of the chamber with cleaning rod. Later on at home, rinse and repeat. The barrel is clearly so loose it's preventing the action from closing on a chambered round. Thus making the rifle a TRUE single shot. I only got 1 round off before it stopped functioning.

Does anybody know how the barrel is secured in the receiver? It doesn't appear to be threaded, pinned perhaps? If pinned, would that first round have caused the loosening?

Looks like I'll have to prepay shipping back to Cimarron after getting authorization, and expect a minimum 2 month wait. I'll call Customer Service tomorrow.

-jb

 

[beag_nut]

Who makes Cimarron? This is brand new, in the box? Or bought as BNIB? (From someone other than "Cimarron"?)

 

[GJeffB]

NIB. Cimarron appears variously to be made by Chiappa or Pedersoli. The vendor was MidwayUSA.com (whom I love BTW), sent to my local FFL and transferred to me as original owner. It was packaged and shipped by Cimarron with all original packaging and paperwork. It's brand new, unfired.

-jb

 

[easy]

Call Midway?

 

[Project355]

I'm about 99% certain that the barrel screws into the receiver. There is not much there to screw into.... and there is probably an open spot, or relief in the threads right at the shoulder where the barrel touches the front of the receiver.

The fix is... dare I say it, to set the barrel back a thread - OR - make a shim. Personally, I'd go for the shim, as setting the barrel back a thread requires rechambering, and moving / refitting the fore end which attaches to the barrel, and maybe fiddlyfarting with the lever/mechanism. One could calculate the required shim thickness, based on where the barrel tightens up, and about how much its "off", combined with knowing (measuring) the thread pitch, the crush factor (usually about .002, equiv. rotation), and applying a little math.

I had a NIB Ruger Single Six with a Buntline barrel (was that 9-1/2 on the Single Six?) that was loose from the factory. Only thing that kept it in place was the ejector rod housing! What a mess that was, because... when Ruger "fixed it" they put a whammy in the barrel right at the barrel/frame junction - literally stretched the barrel where it shouldered up to the frame..... they said I tried to shoot a squib out, but the problem was caught by the shop before I even took receipt of the gun from coming back from repair. Phone calls... Ruger replaced it when it was all said and done. That was the shop I eventually went to work for for a decade, good folks, they stood up for me with Ruger. No longer in biz... owner retired and the new, new, new owners have let it decline, sadly.

 

[GJeffB]

easy, it just seems Midway is just an intermediary, selling venue for another product. Cimarron paperwork is pretty clear: must get authorization, must include original box and paperwork, etc etc. Seems I could see a happy owner unpackaging a new fire arm, tossing the box, and being instantly scrawed. Near as I can estimate with UPS and FedEx could be ~$75-100 shipping.

Maybe I could leverage in Midway if it gets unhappy. I'm not really thrilled about a $big shipping charge. BUT, let's see what the response is.

ITMT, any ideas if a described loose barrel would occur after 1 round, or if it would be an out of the box issue? What would cause such an occurrence? If it's this sloppy, could back thrust from poor fitting be a safety issue had I been able to load and fire more rounds?

Let's consider who's responsible after hearing from Cimarron, and stay in the realm of what did, and could of, happen.

-jb, going slowly

 

[Project355]

Hopefully.... they send a shipping label. Hopefully.... more responsible than Browning/Winchester has been with my 1892, which has been sitting at their place for a month and not even checked into their "system" yet.

 

[GJeffB]

Project355: I'm trying to discern if this is good or bad news Overall, if I had a choice I'd say the proper fix is a rebarrel, if the diagnosis is correct. Otherwise thread trim or shim is equally a bandaid. Do I have it about right? As an aside the 1 round impact wasn't on a 3x4 foot piece of cardboard target at 100 yards. Perhaps not bad if the barrel and sights might be off by 1/4" in a given direction, huh?

Thank you for a diagnosis and possible solution(s). If correct, I'll have to consider carefully the factory repair.
Ya know, I occasionally read stories of weak fixes and selling off the gun. Kind of strikes me as passing on a cracked block engine to the next unsuspecting, bothers me a lot.

Again, thank you much.

-jb, follow ups ... to follow

 

[Project355]

Both fixes work well.

A "factory" fix would be a rebarrel, but Cimarron is not a factory. So we are left with setting back a thread, or shim. Or maybe a replacement rifle.

My current dedicated .22LR AR upper gave me fits when trying to fit the Yankee Hill fore end / barrel nut. One notch fairly loose, next notch unobtainable without exceeding torque limit. I hate to admit that its been shimmed and red Loktite'd - with some NASA grade compound we just call "NASTY" grade (play on word NASA, and it wont ever come off). Only a .22, I know, but it shoots just fine and is accurate as, say, a 10/22 or similar.

 

[GJeffB]

Project, thanks again. Understanding Cimarraon is not a factory, perhaps I could wish upon a star that whomever their factory authorized repair facility is not a bandaid. I promise to keep the thread current, good bad or indifferent.

-jb. appreciates the resource

 

[BBBBill]

any ideas if a described loose barrel would occur after 1 round, or if it would be an out of the box issue?

Out of the box. No way one round could cause that. There are certainly several ways to repair it, some of them correct and some pure junk. St this point it is certainly still on the manufacturer/wholesailer/retailer to deal with depending on their clearly articulated policies that you hopefully readbefore purchase. I would deal with them first until all avenues are exhausted, then think about getting a real gunsmith skilled with that specific type gun to repair it.

 

[Kp321]

Don’t do anything till you talk to Cimarron. They are a fairly small operation and should be responsive to your problem. They should supply you with a prepaid shipping label, ask for one.

 

[GJeffB]

Just updating the thread ...

Email to Cimarron for a Return Authorization (RA#) Dec. 6th explaining the events, date of purchase and advising I have appropriate documentation of purchase. I received a reply Dec.10 (4 business days, not too bad) with an RA# and advised to standby for additional email with paperwork that will need to send with [my] rifle. I replied same day (12/10) asking for a return label for an out of the box defect.

Today, 12/17, 5 more business days with no reply, I followed up asking for an estimated time to expect “'additional paperwork'” so I have an idea when to get worried, please?"
Also included was an explanation that I've never had to return a firearm, and I'm unsure of what response time should be, given covid, etc.

To be continued ...

-jb, no idea what's un/reasonable

 

[GJeffB]

Update as promised

Glad I was patient with Cimarron. They must be buried like other vendors. Anyway, today, after 13 days of no reply, the Customer Service Agent that had contacted me initially replied. He gave me complete step by step instructions and included a prepaid UPS shipping label and a copy of the authorized repair shop's FFL, just in case. No fuss, no muss, dropped it off at UPS and it's on it's merry way.

That's twice now that I was this >< close to jumping down somebody's throat when I've been contacted. CS Agents must also be mind readers

-jb

 

[Project355]

So far so good!

 

[GJeffB]

[Reviving the thread for promised update]

You can’t make this stuff up …

I had a message today to call Cimarron Firearms about my gun [yay, fingers crossed]

I called back and spoke to the Texas Customer Service Rep. She’s happy as a clam, explains that the gunsmith had to send my gun back to the Chiappa factory in Ohio. But they got it repaired, sent it back to the Texas Customer Service center, and she’s going to get it boxed up and sent out to me tomorrow. She goes on to explain it doesn’t have to go to an FFL, (I knew that), verified my address, blah blah blah. As we were finishing up I asked her what repair was made.

“Let’s see,” she says … sound of papers shuffling. “Oh, it says they modified the trigger plate [can almost see the smile on her face].” I nicely explained that I don’t even know what a trigger plate is, but my issue didn’t seem to have anything to do with a trigger plate. She asked me what gun I sent (uh-oh). I told her the model and type of the rifle, and the issue was a loose barrel.

She’s properly embarrassed and explains she thought I was a different customer. She found the paperwork on mine and confirmed the gunsmith had noted “the barrel can be unscrewed by hand” and sent it also to the factory in Ohio.

Me: so my rifle is not repaired?
Her: no, sorry
Me: and you’re not boxing up and sending me the gun?
Her: no, sorry
Me: I had you calendared to follow up on Friday, since that would be 30 business days since the gunsmith received it. Since you called me, could you check on the progress and get me an update?
Her: yes sir. I’ll do that and let you know. I’ll email you tomorrow. I’m sorry for the confusion.
[Conversation closes]

[Jeff kicks himself in the back] Daaaang. If I’d have kept my mouth shut, I might have had some weapon with a “modified trigger plate: show up!” Wait what? Heck, some guy in Sheboygan NJ might still end up with a once fired falling block Talk about confidence in a company … Well, at least they're responsive, friendly, and trying to be helpful

You can’t make this stuff up …

-jb, patiently awaiting the next adventure

 

[wiscoaster]

Thanks for posting the update. Thanks also for seeing the humor in the situation. Fortunately these kinds of stories are pretty rare. And more often than not the companies involved end up doing the right thing by the end user. We don't always read about the stories with the happy endings.

 

[GJeffB]

x-posted per usual

Saga continues ...
Anybody have a valid email address for some exec at Cimarron Arms? Best I could find was a possible [email protected] dunno if that's valid or not.

-jb, getting no replies

 

[GJeffB]

sorry to reply to my own post, but I think I'm closing this thread out. No resolution, no information. I received a response on another forum and I generated this probable final post:

[responding poster], I have indeed documented everything.
Update: Back to the post when the nice lady said my rifle had been forwarded to the "factory in Ohio." I emailed Chiappa Ohio and their reply was that they did not have my rifle, Cimarron has not sent it to them AYKM??
So, since that Feb 8th conversation, I've followed with more emails. [crickets] For some reason they are no longer even responding. I called the original CSR's numbers ... no answer, no answering machine, just ring ring ring until I gave up. Right now I know zero about their repairs. All I know is their customer service has provided conflicting and false information and for whatever reason stopped answering my inquires. That's about the worst thing you can do, ignore a customer.

[Responding poster]: "next time you talk to any one there, tell them you have kept all e-mails and phone calls from day one and if things don,t get resolved to your liking, you will post every thing"

Yeah, I've considered that. Just not my style. Sounds like "I'm gonna tell my mom on you ..." No offense, I just don't play that card. Besides, everything I've posted here and elsewhere is factual and not embellished. I leave it up to the readers to draw their conclusions.

So to recap: It's been well over 60 days. Their CSR offered to follow up if I asked, has not. Another CSR almost (apparently) returned the wrong gun, and again offered to provide an update, didn't happen. I was told the rifle was returned to the factory, factory denies. Additional requests to original CSR *and* company president (if I had the correct e-dress) are unanswered. I'm inquiring about a credit card merchant dispute, but I'm guessing it's too late. I almost feel like my gun is lost, but I can't be sure one way or another.

Conclusion: take what you will about Cimarron customer care. But thanks again for the suggestion

-jb, never never land

 

[BBBBill]

Turn it over to BATF or the sheriff in their jurisdiction. They will get an answer. Guaranteed........

 

[GJeffB]

A member on another forum posted that he was looking at a rifle sold by Cimarron, but was skipping it because of my experiences. I think it's only fair that I update, even though the situation is still pending:

I was waiting for a resolution before posting a wrap up, but I have to be fair to all involved. First and foremost Cimarron is in central Texas and apparently got whacked by the snowstorm. They lost power, food, water, telephones, every communication possible. So there's that.
Next. The CSR got in touch with me this past Thursday, the 11th. Apparently (I have no reason to disbelieve) the rifle WAS sent to the Chiappa factory in Ohio in mid-January. The factory just didn't know it (SMH). They sat on it for almost 2 months, then denied to me AND Cimarron that they had it despite shipping and receiving documentation. The factory finally located it and returned it to Cimarron with a description "retightened barrel." That's it. No test fire, no evaluation of how/why the barrel became loose, nada. And finally, the Customer Service Rep at Cimarron advises the wood forearm apparently has 2 new "indentations" that weren't there when sent to the factory. So it's pretty certain the problems aren't with Cimarron, but rather with Chiappa. The original Seller, MidwayUSA.com is intervening, and the Cimarron CSR is trying to see if I get money back, or a new rifle, or ... That decision will probably be the telling factor about Cimarron Firearms Customer service.

I just don't want anybody assuming blame on one place or another until it all plays out. Certainly the purchase decision remains [the other poster's].

-jb

 

[GJeffB]

3/29/2021, dragging this out absurdly. I'll understand if a mod wants it closed.
I'm *really* trying to keep it objective and not vindictive ...
Midway has bailed: no refunds on guns, it's a drop ship, blah blah. I got it, Midway is clearly upfront, "non returnable item." I don't like it, but it's clear.
Since last update March 11 I've inquired 3 times, including to "sales" asking for a reply from the CSR. I have no idea (AGAIN) where the rifle is. No idea what the damage is [an aside: CSR was to email me 9 pictures of the "indentations," never happened]. I've requested exact replacement, substitute replacements (higher priced), or refund. Cimarron has again gone dark. [sarcasm] perhaps another snow storm [/sarcasm].
BBB complaint filed tonight.

-jb, no rifle, no replacement, no money, no Chiappa, never again Cimarron

 

[GJeffB]

x-posted
Apparently closing out the thread. This should be the last post on the subject, and I appreciate the patience of all who have followed it dragging out.

My expectations have been, since 12/29/2020, a satisfactory repair of a factory defective rifle. The rifle was “lost" for ~2 months. That has failed. After inadequate “repair” the rifle was returned to Cimarron with ADDITIONAL damage. That was obviously a fail. I’ve asked for a replacement. Ignored. I’ve asked for a refund twice. Ignored. I’ve gone through periods of months without response or explanation. Last update:

March 29 BBB complaint filed and accepted.

March 31 I’m advised by Cimarron that the rifle was *again* returned to the “factory” to repair/replace the fore end damaged created at the first attempt to repair. No reply since.

May 1 response from BBB that they asked for a response from Cimarron and received none. Subsequently the BBB called the business for a response and received none. The BBB is closing the complaint as “unanswered” and will report it on the business for 3 years. The BBB suggests [exact quote] “You may consider legal advice to assist further with your complaint”

Bringing suit across 3 states (my Colorado residence, Cimarron’s business location, Texas, and “the factory” in Ohio) is beyond my scope. After extensive explanations and excuses from Cimarron Customer Service, I felt guilty for being demanding. Now that a formal Better Business Bureau complaint has also been ignored, I feel not so much.

I’m repeatedly asked if I expect to ever receive my property. I must sadly now reply that I honestly don’t know. Regardless of a company’s backlog, I’d expect a factory defect to be run to the front of the queue, perhaps ahead of bluing issues, “doesn’t shoot to point of aim,” and the such. Beyond that, I’d expect a factory return to not be lost for 2 months. And finally, I’d expect a second return for factory damage to be first in line. None such has happened.

I’ve taken up way too much bandwidth. I have never and never will call for avoiding a vendor, so I’ll let all who follow this tale make their own purchase decision. For me … never again.

-jb, YMMV, thanks for following

 

[gobsauce]

x-posted
Apparently closing out the thread. This should be the last post on the subject, and I appreciate the patience of all who have followed it dragging out.

My expectations have been, since 12/29/2020, a satisfactory repair of a factory defective rifle. The rifle was “lost" for ~2 months. That has failed. After inadequate “repair” the rifle was returned to Cimarron with ADDITIONAL damage. That was obviously a fail. I’ve asked for a replacement. Ignored. I’ve asked for a refund twice. Ignored. I’ve gone through periods of months without response or explanation. Last update:

March 29 BBB complaint filed and accepted.

March 31 I’m advised by Cimarron that the rifle was *again* returned to the “factory” to repair/replace the fore end damaged created at the first attempt to repair. No reply since.

May 1 response from BBB that they asked for a response from Cimarron and received none. Subsequently the BBB called the business for a response and received none. The BBB is closing the complaint as “unanswered” and will report it on the business for 3 years. The BBB suggests [exact quote] “You may consider legal advice to assist further with your complaint”

Bringing suit across 3 states (my Colorado residence, Cimarron’s business location, Texas, and “the factory” in Ohio) is beyond my scope. After extensive explanations and excuses from Cimarron Customer Service, I felt guilty for being demanding. Now that a formal Better Business Bureau complaint has also been ignored, I feel not so much.

I’m repeatedly asked if I expect to ever receive my property. I must sadly now reply that I honestly don’t know. Regardless of a company’s backlog, I’d expect a factory defect to be run to the front of the queue, perhaps ahead of bluing issues, “doesn’t shoot to point of aim,” and the such. Beyond that, I’d expect a factory return to not be lost for 2 months. And finally, I’d expect a second return for factory damage to be first in line. None such has happened.

I’ve taken up way too much bandwidth. I have never and never will call for avoiding a vendor, so I’ll let all who follow this tale make their own purchase decision. For me … never again.

-jb, YMMV, thanks for following

I'd still like an update , if there ever is one.

 

[BBBBill]

I'd still like an update , if there ever is one.

Same here. Feel free to keep us posted. Have you thought about sharing on social media (Facebook)? There are numerous firearms groups over there for every type of firearm, including Cimmaron's own page - (20+) Cimarron Firearms Company | Facebook. I would post factually, accurately, respectfully on every page that I could find related to your type gun as well as Cimmaron's page. I've seen posts with problems like yours get serious traction towards resolving the problem. They really do NOT want issues like yours to gain visibility among potential customers.