"Civilian" versus "LEO" terms

[JohnBT]

I don't like the term COP either.

And what is it with this LEO stuff. It always makes me think of Leo Durocher. All these police officers can't want to be like Leo can they?

www.cmgww.com/baseball/durocher/index.htm

JohnBT...the T must stand for throwback

 

[toro]

That's funny my dictionary says something different.

Civilian -- A person NOT on active duty in a military, POLICE, or fire-fighting force. Mmmmmmmmmm it does say police. However I thought police were civilians.

Citizen -- An inhabitant of a city or town. A person who owns allegiance to a government and is intitled to protection from it.

I guess it is what dictionary you are reading?

Mrs. Toro


__________________________________________
1 Chronicles 28:20
And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the Lord God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou has finished all the work for the service of the house of the Lord.

 

[Holly76201]

I think SOME LEOs {the abbreviation always make me think of the astrological sign Leo} use the term "Civilian" in conversation with other LEOs as shorthand for "not one of 'us' ".
And why do they say "not one of 'us' "? Because these days so many GOOD LEOs are accussed of being JBTs just because they wear a uniform, badge and gun and put their lives on the line 24/7 to Protect and Serve.
My dearly beloved is an LEO and I get really tired of seeing all officers painted with the same brush, especially on this board!

Flame me if you want to, but I don't see YOU {the LEO critics} out there trying to make a difference!
Holly

 

[TechBrute]

but I don't see YOU {the LEO critics} out there trying to make a difference!

So the only way to "make a difference" is to be a LEO?

 

[Holly76201]

Techbrute, and any other, I'll answer you in a PM, but I won't Flame on the board.
And of course there are other ways to "Make a difference" besides being an LEO. But LEOs are charged with reducing crime and b/cof underfunded, understaffed departments everywhere they are actually more of a mop up detail or a Crime Solving Person rather than a crime prevention agent.

 

[sm]

Holly,
granted many of my friends whom serve and protect are retired or retiring ( that age thingy you know...me included).
In anything we have bad examples. We sure use a lot of acronyms these days. People nowadays tend to impress within an industry by speaking in code. Had a neighbor, bad bad example, drinking one night with fellow officers...two rds of a Glock .40 went through the wall...the other way thank goodness,( for me) and thank goodness that other neighbor wasn't hit.
No longer is he on the force, or most of that party crew, these were the kind that gives the dept the bad rep.

I've had it in mine. Somtimes one needs to speak with a co-worker in terms for a reason, I have no problem with that. Sometimes it distinguishes a Professional in a business from that is not. Or denotes one is trained, maybe something as simple as "can you drive a stick, or know CPR"...not what you say, but how one says it...really might be a dire need for assistance.

I spent some time in the OR. Now its one thing to say things like GSW R patella. Ok in the OR to say abraded R patella, but tell the family the gunshot wound is right kneecap...or little child just scrapped his knee...they just want to know, not really in a mood to decipher. I worked with good nurses and surgeons, but had a few trying to impress each other...or themselves. Families felt like they were being talked down to.

Acronyms and PC...not always a good thing IMO.

Can be really bad to talk down and use that "terminology". For instance you find me hurt, in pain, and semi conscious. You call for help for me not good to say I'm allergic to ASA, and I'll go into anaphalatic shock. Now what that means I'm allergic to aspirin and any form...any Non-steriodial anti inflamatory ( NSADS). I'm gonna be in trouble-quick.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Let's lay aside, for a moment, the issues of LEO corruption and elitism, as arguing the degree to which they exist is a distraction.

IMO, the heart of the issue is that someone who has undergone screening and training, and has been issued a badge is viewed by both society and the law as "presumed trustworthy".

That's perfectly OK.

THE PROBLEM COMES when the civilians are viewed by society and the law as "presumed NOT trustworthy".

And nothing drives the point home so deeply as any firearm, magazine or ammunition box stamped "LEO USE ONLY", and all of the laws, regulations and implications that are behind the existence of those 10 letters stamped on steel.

Hell, the NJ supreme court even went so far as to judicially invent an NJ AWB exemption for LEOs that did not in fact exist in the text of the law.

It creates two broad classes of citizen, those presumed worthy of trust, and those who are presumed unworthy.


Again, I have no problem with presuming a LEO is trustworthy. Most are.

But I draw the line when you start presuming that I'm NOT trustworthy, because I don't have a badge, or have undergone some sort of screening process.

Real problems will arise when the default assumption is that people are presumed to be "untrusted", because the mechanism through which one enters the "trusted" category is subject to all sorts of manipulation.

It's much better and just to adopt a policy of "trusted until proven otherwise".

 

[TechBrute]

I think GW45 just hit the nail on the head, at least for me.

 

[444]

We have read numerous threads over the years about the use of the word civilian. I have also read several were law enforcement officers don't like the term LEO, or they try to make a point that real LEOs don't use the term LEO. I of course don't know the first person to use the term LEO, so I might be totally off base here, but I thought the term LEO is a computer abbreviation to avoid having to type Law Enforcement Officer, a term used to refer to anyone that enforces the law; federal, state, local.
As far as I know, the word COP is another abreviation meaning: constable on patrol.
These two terms are simply terms that are easy to type or say; shorter than the origial phrase.
Use of the term civilian serves a similar purpose.

 

[El Tejon]

Former LEO here. We never used the term "civilian" when referencing non-LEOs. In describing non-LEOs, it was "potential member of the jury pool" or a "witness."

I think a lot of people object to the feudalization of the law. In our rush toward the Great False Promise of Socialism, we have replaced "equality under the law" with peasants (who must obey the law) and knights (who are exempt from the law--especially "gun control" laws) [Outer Party/Inner Party, Shogun system, lots of analogies]. This is what cheeses folks off the most, and rightly so from my p.o.v.

 

[Tamara]

I've used "LEO" or "cop" as shorthand for the po-po.

I've used "Joe Citizen" or "Suzy Civilian" as shorthand to distinguish them from "Johnny Law."

As 444 pointed out, sometimes you need a term to separate "party A" from "party B" quickly and briefly in a conversation.

I've had many Peace Officer friends, but "Peace Officer" just doesn't roll of the tongue as quickly and easily as "cop," and saying "My CCW permit sure seemed to startle Suzy Civilian" is easier than saying "My CCW permit sure seemed to startle Mrs. Koszlowski, who lives in the suburbs and doesn't think violent crime is something that could ever affect her or hers."

 

[BenW]

I think Cordex hit it in the first part of his post. If you want to, for ease of communication, use separate terms (like the way 444 explained it in his post) I don't think people have much of a problem with that. It's when the term is used to allude that one group has more rights, or is superior to another group that the trouble starts.

In my time in the Federal Service, I have often heard the term "Fed" used. Some people use it as a convenient term when distinguishing some work-related matter among a mix of participants (e.g., "because of regulations, the feds can't do that, but the contractors can). Others use it to make themselves special (e.g., "I'm a fed, and I can get away with that, but a private citizen can't). The former use of the term is pretty innocuous, the latter is kinda scary.

 

[buzz_knox]

On second thought, it's not worth it getting involved.

 

[355sigfan]

Please read some history and some law. The only difference between you and me, legally, is that you are allowed to arrest people for misdemeanors, and I'm not!
END

Actualy I know my history and law. I need to correct you on one thing as well. It varies state to state what people can do for citizen arrests. In Alaska where I work a citizen can arrest people for misdemeanors commited in their presence just like an officer. Time for you to do some more legal research.
Pat

 

[444]

"The only difference between you and me, legally, is that you are allowed to arrest people for misdemeanors, and I'm not!"

Actually I am surprised that no one else mentioned this but there are certainly other differences. A LEO can buy full capacity magazines and have items such as flash suppressors and bayonet lugs on rifles.

I still don't see the big deal about the word however. In fact, if you wanted to look at it in a negative light, any word could be used for a negative purpose. If you see it as a we vs. they thing, then the word cop or police officer would have the same meaning; We are police officers and they are not.

Arn't there enough real issues to worry about in this world ?

 

[tyme]

444, I think the point is that using "LEO" and "civilian" as classes of people without referring to specific qualities or events is divisive and creates a false dichotomy. Saying a LEO arrested a purse-snatcher yesterday is fine, but saying LEOs like/dislike policy X is dangerous, as it implies LEOs have more right or more reason to be involved in policy decisions than everyone else.

LEOs in various places can also do other things besides misdemeanor arrests. They have special relationships with the courts (as representatives of the state), they can often use deadly force to stop a fleeing violent felon while citizens usually cannot, etc.

And whenever a law not directly related to the execution of law enforcement powers (above) differentiates between LEOs and non-LEOs, there's a problem. It's easy to see how this has gotten out of hand. A police car goes 45 in a 35 zone or does a rolling stop? No problem. If I do it, I risk a ticket if an officer is having a bad day or is under quota. We all know that police have a variety of exemptions from laws even when they're not actively investigating something (they have no written exemption from obeying motor vehicle code, though).

Seeing any distinction between LEOs and civilians in even casual conversation brings to mind all these unjust police benefits. In one sense it should be encouraged so that the proles rise up and get unjust police benefits removed. In the other, such distinction should be suppressed so that people don't get used to the false distinction.

 

[cordex]

Based on your reaction I think I hit the nail on the head.

How so?
As I've said time and again on this board and on TFL, all my interactions with police - every single one - to date have been positive. Even traffic stops. The police around here that I've had the pleasure of dealing with have been polite, professional and generally good people. I have no idea why you seek to imply that I "hate cops" because I dislike one particular use of a word (using "civilian" to designate an inferior class).

You are willfully branding me as something undesirable because I disagree with you, merely so you can dismiss my viewpoints without bothering to think about them.

Most of the people I have come across on these boards who bring up this subject are the ones constantly flaming leo's and have an ax to grind.

Not I.
Do I criticize "Officers of the Law"? You betcha! But criticism of the actions of some police officers does not a cop hater make.

You are displaying the same knee-jerk reaction that I've seen of others blindly give.

 

[Steve in PA]

civilian doesn't = inferior

civilian = different

The inferior part is a label people who don't like the word "civilian" put upon themselves.

So if the military uses the "c" word.....then we are being labled inferior and should have an uprising??

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Yawn.

Such a non-issue.

The militarization of US police is a concern to a lot of people

Police departments have LONG been run as paramilitary organizations. Ever notice the rank insignia most departments use? Granted, saluting is falling out of favor, but it used to be de rigeur.

Many groups refer to outsiders as "civilians." Police, firefighters, medical workers -- anyone "in the trenches."

Is it a "false" dichotomy? No, it's a real one. It doesn't imply special powers or rights, it just distinguishes between roles.

There are many things to be concerned about in police/non-police relations, but this word just ain't any of `em.

 

[Orthonym]

Of COURSE Fed=evil.

So my Great-Grandpappys thought, and always did their best to shoot Feds on sight.


Seriously, though, I really do believe that all Federal cops other than part-time contractor marshals have no Constitutional existence. I think the FBI was originally invented for no other reason than to investigate other US Govt employees, and there was some objection even to that in Congress.
The Treasury got into the cop business by being in charge of customs.

 

[labgrade]

I entered a "LEO" office in the mid-70s as a purely humanitarian aspect = a "firefighter "with a gunmentality" - to assist when required, & a first responder, when eveything went to hell & who else you gona call'?

"Who else to assist when all things went to hell?"

It turned out to be somewhat less that what I anticipated.

"I see that there is a difference.
But the attitude of some LEOs is wrong, I think.
Seems that some forget their job is to protect and serve so-called "civilians", not just each other. Thankfully, most are not like this. That our society is still functioning is proof of this."

I readily saw that there was an "us" versus "them" mentality. A literal "you are guilty until proven innocent" mentality.

First off, & very immediate! & this is crutical response is = You are guilty! in any civil suit & you will have to prove that you are not guity.

Never forget this!

Your (local assitant/deputy DA) will attempt to, at the least, charge you with the least legitimate charge acceptable, without going to court that you will be acceptable for the return on investment & you will have to spend at leaty $10K to prove that you didn't "use your fireqarm "in the defense."



Tell ya what = first thing = cops gotcha on the "initial charge." Best thing is to never go her = never give them a chance to charge. VRY GOOD AVICE

 

[Orbital-Burn]

I'm white, so I don't listen to crap, but I think NWA said it best about cops

"mother f___ the police"

 

[355sigfan]

I'm white, so I don't listen to crap, but I think NWA said it best about cops

"mother f___ the police"

END

Another case for retroactive abortions.
Pat

 

[Tamara]

Boy, did this one go south in a hurry.