cleaner burning powder

[243winxb]

Within 30 rounds I could feel the cylinder bindin . 158 grain Keigh (Keith?)HC slug)

Unique powder may not be the problem.Cast bullets are dirty.

Extract the fired brass with the barrel pointing up. This keep residue from getting behind the extractor star.


Use a magnum primer for a cleaner burn, if you feel its a powder problem.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm old fashioned and tend to stick with what works for me. Even though there are a handful of newer and very capable powders out there I like the results I get with W231 especially in the .38 Special and 45 ACP. I think they were made for each other. W231 can be downloaded or pushed to full power and still burn fairy clean.

Like I have said many times before, I can load everything for handguns with only three powders, W231/HP-38 being one of them and W540/HS-6 and W296/H110 being the other two.

When I test W244 and W572 that may change but who knows?

 

[1KPerDay]

It's really essentially the same thing. The fuel is cellulose, which is a hydrocarbon just as gasoline is. The oxygen comes from the nitration done to form nitrocellulose. If the combustion runs to completion, all the oxygen is consumed. There is hydrogen in the remaining propellant and it is hot enough that it ignites when the gas mixture reaches open air. That's the source of a lot of the muzzle flash that you see.

this is a very drastic oversimplification. And your assertion that the flash is an indicator of
more complete combustion is patently false. We'll ignore the fact that you're comparing two totally different processes and mechanisms. And that for all intents and purposes in the case of fuel mixture adjustment the fuel is the same and you adjust either compression or mixture to achieve a desired result, while there are far more variables in reloading. And to claim that a clean burn in the latter causes some mysterious internal damage to the firearm is simply ridiculous.

 

[Average Joe]

BE 86 with FMJ bullets, seem to be a good combo for clean barrels.

 

[denton]

this is a very drastic oversimplification. And your assertion that the flash is an indicator of
more complete combustion is patently false. We'll ignore the fact that you're comparing two totally different processes and mechanisms. And that for all intents and purposes in the case of fuel mixture adjustment the fuel is the same and you adjust either compression or mixture to achieve a desired result, while there are far more variables in reloading. And to claim that a clean burn in the latter causes some mysterious internal damage to the firearm is simply ridiculous.

The main difference between gasoline combustion and nitrocellulose is that in an engine, you are drawing oxygen from the air and can adjust the fuel mixture to be rich or lean. In nitrocellulose, the oxygen is stuck to the cellulose molecules when nitration is done and the fuel/oxygen ratio is fixed at that time. In both cases, you are burning a hydrocarbon with oxygen. In both cases, if there is more fuel than oxygen, you'll get soot. In both cases, if there is more oxygen than fuel, you'll have really hot oxygen in contact with steel, and the oxygen will eat away at the steel, and, of course, make little CO2 molecules with the soot.

Yes, muzzle flash comes in two stages. Practically always, the powder is completely burned before the bullet exits the muzzle. The first stage of muzzle flash is the burned out gas being hot enough to glow. The second stage is when the hot hydrogen hits ambient air and ignites. If you look around, you can find high speed video of the main flash actually occurring a few inches beyond the muzzle.

I'd quote you chapter and verse out of the classic text on propellants, but a chemist friend of mine down in Orem coveted my copy, and I gave it to him.

Several good examples here:

 

[reddog81]

in both cases, if there is more fuel than oxygen, you'll get soot. In both cases, if there is more oxygen than fuel, you'll have really hot oxygen in contact with steel, and the oxygen will eat away at the steel, and, of course, make little CO2 molecules with the soot.]

I believe the exact opposite happens with firearms. Add more fuel and you'll get less soot. Add less fuel and it'll run cooler.

 

[denton]

I believe the exact opposite happens with firearms. Add more fuel and you'll get less soot. Add less fuel and it'll run cooler.

You do have to remember that when you add more fuel to a cartridge, you are also adding oxygen in the same proportion. The fuel/oxygen ratio of a propellant is set when it is manufactured.

Add more fuel and oxygen, i.e, more powder, and you'll get higher pressures and temperatures and less leftover carbon.

 

[reddog81]

Adding more powder means less oxygen inside the case. A case full of powder will have less oxygen vs a half full case.

 

[denton]

Adding more powder means less oxygen inside the case. A case full of powder will have less oxygen vs a half full case.

Only by the very, very tiniest amount. Nitrocellulose burns quite nicely in a vacuum. Practically all the oxygen in smokeless powder is carried in the nitrocellulose molecules. The amount of oxygen in the air in the case doesn't matter.

If you are battling zombies on the moon, the air in your cartridges will soon leak out, but your trusty firearm will work just fine.

 

[Dudedog]

I'd quote you chapter and verse out of the classic text on propellants, but a chemist friend of mine down in Orem coveted my copy, and I gave it to him.

Do you recall the name of the text? Might be an interesting read.

 

[roscoe]

Wow - a lot of recommendations. I will have to try a few.

As to the question about lube - it is a dry lube, not a wax-based lube. Cast Performance calls it a "Proprietary Clear Lube", but there was far more leading than I had expected or hoped for. To be honest, the leading was bad enough that I may lube these slugs manually.

The soot was even on the outside of the cyinder, which is why I suspected the powder. And I could feel the cylinder was just that little bit tougher to rotate after 50 rounds or so - it never bound anything up. Still, it seemed pretty messy compared to factory loads I had used.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I agree with the others in saying the lead bullets are causing more of your issue than the Unique is. There is a very easy way to find out. Load some copper plated bullets with the same load of Unique, shoot the same amount then compare. Unique is dirty compared to a lot of other powders but what you are describing sound like my experience when I was shooting uncoated lead bullets.
What a mess.
And don't lick your fingers after you cleaned your gun, that gray residue that your cleaning patch has on it probably has lead in it.

 

[Jack B.]

I shoot mostly plated or jacketed bullets a few hard cast. I've used Unique for years without a problem.

 

[brutus51]

During the component shortage I ran out of Unique, had plenty of Universal on hand for my shotguns so I started using it as a substitute.
Meters better, it's cleaner, requires slightly less for comparable performance. Haven't gone back to Unique since.
I use it in .44mag, ,357mag and .45 Colt all with lead SWC's.
Started using Titegroup recently in .45ACP with excellent results. I'm shooting plated bullets and will try it in .38 Super today.
In researching Titegroup I've read that it burns really hot and as a result is not recommended for lead bullets.
I have no experience on this matter just passing on some feedback I've gotten.

 

[MEHavey]

Titegroup works exceptionally well in both the 45 Colt, and w/ lead bullets,



post: .
- The RCBS 45-270 used above is a plain-base bullet
- The bullet/powder combination leaves am absolutely mirror-finish bore w/ 1 dry patch.


.

 

[LiveLife]

.45LC and .38/.357 ... some target .38 loads

Any recommendations for a cleaner-burning powder appropriate for revolver rounds?

You need a faster powder that will burn better at the low pressure you are running.

WST would be a good choice.

+1.

And for light target loads in high volume cases like .38 Special, many use bullets that produce greater neck tension for more efficient powder burn like full wad cutters.

For my light target loads in various calibers, Clays produced cleaner loads than other powders like Bullseye, Red Dot/Promo, W231/HP-38. As others posted already, WST/Titegroup can produce accurate target loads.

With W231/HP-38 and lubed lead bullets, gummy residue can be a problem with certain loads and is temperature sensitive.

Many are considering Alliant's new Sport Pistol to be cleaner burning powder than N320 and more temperature stable - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-performance-info-for-shot-011017-pdf.235432/

How "clean" a powder burns is relative to chamber pressures used. Many consider Herco (cousin of flaming dirt Unique) to be dirty burning but in 40S&W with 180 gr lead or plated TCFP bullets, 6.1 gr charge will burn clean enough to leave the inside of cases shiny (And most pistol/shotgun powders won't do this, even for 40S&W). But for 45LC at Cowboy load pressures and .38 Spl light target loads, Herco will burn less efficient and will leave cases dirty with soot. Bullseye, Red Dot/Promo and W231/HP-38 45LC loads all burned dirty for me using 250 gr plated bullet at Cowboy load pressures but Bullseye and W231/HP-38 loads produced more accurate loads.

 

[brutus51]

Thanks for the tip Mr. MEHavey although I think there may be some truth in what others have said about Titegroup burning hot as I just returned from the range where I shot 150 38 Super rounds. 50 with TG and 100 much higher velocity rounds with AA#7. The TG brass was easier to find because the mouth of the new Starline brass was blackened, not so with the AA#7 rounds.
Got the same blackened condition on my .45ACP brass as well but boy were those rounds accurate.

 

[MEHavey]

Brutus, blackened brass has no connection w/ burn temp.
It simply means pressure was not high enough to seal the mouth.

 

[Dudedog]

Lots of things cause leading,
The most common are bullets that are to hard and poor bullet to barrel fit.
Did a quick check of their site. Pics look like bullets are lubed with the "normal"
hard blue lube.
I didn't see a hardness listed, but for light loads you want something around say BHN 12 at the most 16 and 16 is probably harder than you need
For Full power .357 loads you probably want something BHN 16 ot 18.

Missouri Bullet Company makes nice cast bullets available lubed or coated. Shot lots of the lubed ones with no leading issue in 9mm, but for the few extra $ it worth getting the coated ones.
MBC offers THR members a 5% discount with a code, they are great to do business with
Acme also makes some nice cast coated bullets, never had any issues with any of my Acme orders.
Plated bullets would be an option as well, usually not a lot more than lead coated.
Rocky Mountain reloading usually has both .38/.357 and .45 LC bullets. They are great to do business with.
They also offer THR members a 5% discount with a code and have free shipping.

 

[Walkalong]

The TG brass was easier to find because the mouth of the new Starline brass was blackened,

Typical "Titegroup stain". Purely cosmetic.

I tried Titegroup, since it was touted as not being position sensitive. Well, it was average at best about losing velocity when powder forward against the bullet vs powder back against the primer, it scorched cases, burns hot, is dark & uses tiny charges that are harder to see in the bottom of a .38 Spl or .357 case, can easily be double charged and not look a lot different, and in general didn't wow me. Lot's of Titegroup fans out there though.

I much prefer WST to it. WST is lightly colored and easy to see in the case, is one of the least position sensitive fast powders I have tried, is fairly bulky, and very accurate for me in light .38 Spl & .357 loads. I haven't tried it in .45 Colt yet, ut it should work well.

 

[roscoe]

Lots of things cause leading,
on of the most common is bullets that are to hard and poor bullet to barrel fit.
Did a quick check of their site. Pics look like bullets are lubed with the "normal"
hard blue lube.
I didn't see a hardness listed, but for light loads you want something around say BHN 12 at the most 16 and 16 is probably harder than you need
For Full power .357 loads you probably want something BHN 16 ot 18. . .

Yes, that is interesting - they don't show the ones I bought at Sportsman's Warehouse with their 'clear' (or invisible) lube. I will manually lube a few and see if it makes a difference. If not, I guess they are just too hard for target loads. Maybe add a gas check?

 

[Dudedog]

They might seal better if loaded a little hotter, maybe maybe not.
Or try lubing them with some Lee bullet lube.
Interesting read on cast bullets worth checking out.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?resources/cast-bullets.4/

 

[roscoe]

At least the leading went away when I fired a few FMJ through the barrel.

They might seal better if loaded a little hotter, maybe maybe not.
Or try lubing them with some Lee bullet lube.

So, this is another thing I don't understand - how can a thin lube like Lee Lube help seal the bore? I get that it acts as a lubricant, but how can it help full the barrel grooves to seal the gasses in ? Doesn't that require a harder lube?

 

[Walkalong]

Soft lubes work just fine, if not better.

 

[Blue68f100]

The lube must stay on the bullet and work the full length of the barrel. When you are getting leading at the end of the barrel the lube as stopped working. At the start, bullet not sealing, improper fit. In revolvers this is where most of the problem is. Cylinder throats too small, or forcing cone too small normally, or too hard or soft due to charge.