Cleveland Taco Bell employees shoot and kill armed robber

[Reloadron]

I have to go thru cleveland to see a friend of mine out there... it is the pit hole of america, next to NY being the worst state to live in, if your a gun owner.

Aw please, don't be so kind.
Actually overall Ohio in general is pretty good with little restriction in gun ownership and CCW including open carry. Less guns, Cleveland in the right areas is OK. They are typical for the region with trying to usurp the rights of gun owners and have been trumped several times by state law with their restrictive gun nonsense. When it comes to guns Ohio Law trumps anything small cities or towns try to enact. I ended up here in '72 when the Marine Corps sent me here as a then 22 year old right out of Vietnam. Despite a few escapes over the years I kept ending up here and eventually retired from a good company and a job I enjoyed. Thinking about NC but for now this is it. Planning lunch today at a nice beach bar on the lake. The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is nice and they have a good playhouse square. Living in the burbs what happens downtown really doesn't have any effect on me. The winters do suck!

As I mentioned, I am waiting to see how this Taco Bell thing plays out. It should get interesting as in many cities it would have never been considered to charge the shooters but this is indeed Cleveland and a mecca for those against the gun.

Ron

 

[Cooter Boolit]

Aw please, don't be so kind.
Actually overall Ohio in general is pretty good with little restriction in gun ownership and CCW including open carry. Less guns, Cleveland in the right areas is OK. They are typical for the region with trying to usurp the rights of gun owners and have been trumped several times by state law with their restrictive gun nonsense. When it comes to guns Ohio Law trumps anything small cities or towns try to enact. I ended up here in '72 when the Marine Corps sent me here as a then 22 year old right out of Vietnam. Despite a few escapes over the years I kept ending up here and eventually retired from a good company and a job I enjoyed. Thinking about NC but for now this is it. Planning lunch today at a nice beach bar on the lake. The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is nice and they have a good playhouse square. Living in the burbs what happens downtown really doesn't have any effect on me. The winters do suck!

As I mentioned, I am waiting to see how this Taco Bell thing plays out. It should get interesting as in many cities it would have never been considered to charge the shooters but this is indeed Cleveland and a mecca for those against the gun.

Ron

Your absolutely right Ron, ohio is a very nice place, been all over ohio many many times... my problem is with cleveland, not the whole state of ohio.

 

[rtroha]

There is no actual law forbidding possession of a handgun by someone age 18-20. However, acquiring one legally is almost impossible since it is a felony to sell or furnish a handgun to someone under 21 with one limited exception. It can only be done legally if the 18-20 year old is either active duty military or is LEO.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21v1

It is also illegal for someone that age to purchase a handgun with the same exception as above.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.211v1

The only other way someone could legally possess a handgun at age 18-20 is if that person was previously a resident of a state where purchasing a handgun at that age is legal. Then, if that person subsequently moved to Ohio, since the gun was acquired legally out-of-state, possession would be legal.

You guys can diss this area all you want but after all the travels my former employer paid for, I never saw a place I liked better than Ohio. My only complaint would be finding a reasonably priced place to shoot.

 

[Officers'Wife]

There has got to be so much more to this story than was, or will ever be, reported.

Having three (young) armed employees in another area, and ready, when the robber entered seems to indicate a bit of foreknowledge on their part (either that or this restaurant is in a really, really bad part of town). Not one, but two, under 21 (minimum age for licensing in Ohio) employees packing? Humm ...

From what I've been told (by someone that has lived there) that store's location is not one of your safer parts of Cleveland. While suspicious minds might (right or wrong) wonder about foreknowledge if you worked midnights in a public restaurant in a "rough" part of town wouldn't you be armed and aware of customers in hoodies?

 

[444]

I have to go thru cleveland to see a friend of mine out there... it is the pit hole of america, next to NY being the worst state to live in, if your a gun owner.

That brush is certainly broad.

The city of Cleveland ?
Maybe, I don't know.
But the vast majority of the land mass of the state is very nice. And like every other state, has a few extremely left wing cities. I have lived in Ohio for about 20 or so years and I even live on the same side of the state as Cleveland. But I have only been there twice. And FWIW: I had a good time. I went to the Rock & Roll hall of fame, then I went next door and toured the WWII submarine. Then I toured the container ship. Then I went to an Indians game. And then I left. I did the same thing both times I was there

 

[Reloadron]

Your absolutely right Ron, ohio is a very nice place, been all over ohio many many times... my problem is with cleveland, not the whole state of ohio.

I understand and absolutely have to agree. Life in the suburbs continues.

Yes, the area this took place in is not where many people want to be. A few years ago I would have added after dark but we have shootings at 2 in the afternoon. While I would never have to worry about working a Taco Bell in any area there are places in Cleveland where I do not want to be. Maybe in a few tears to NC, I guess we shall see but the kids and grandchildren are close down in Columbus.

No shortage of indoor ranges and I mostly shoot at an outdoor range for which I pay about $100 annual membership. Indoor ranges run about $300 and up with a few being pretty nice and a few which are a nightmare.

Ron

 

[Old Dog]

I'm really trying to stay out of threads where folks jump in and make broad generalizations about cities in which the thread's OP topic occurred. Cleveland is hardly the "pit hole of America." "Cooter Boolit," take the advice of my grandma: if you've nothing good to say about someone or someplace, just keep your mouth shut (I've found some great places and met a lot of great people in New York too). I'm from Detroit, a city that's widely bashed, and have actually spent time in Cleveland, another great Mid-Western blue-collar city with a great sports culture, vibrant nightlife, good eats and good people. Folks, there's no reason to bash any American city -- especially if you've never spent time there.

My first post in this thread had everything to do with the folks involved, not the city in which the action occurred. Two 19-year-old employees of a Taco Bell pulling pistols and shooting robbers at 2:45 a.m. is more about the individuals involved, not the city. I still maintain there was something else at play here. And, uh, why is a Taco Bell open all night anyway?

 

[SwaneeSR]

Unfortunately incidents like this are happening in many other locations. The fact is that armed robberies like this are occurring in places that do not have many tall buildings. The location being Cleveland, Ohio is relevant to the gun laws in place.

Like Ron stated above, incidents happen during the day. The Twin Cities area has had armed robbery incidents occur during daylight hours like 9am and in the suburbs. Crazy.

Eventually enough information will be released such as video to determine if it was a good shoot. That does seems likely with the facts reported. What happens to the employees who responded with lethal force? They did what they had to do to go home alive. There may be consequences legally and from their employer.

The manner that incidents are reported in the media is another matter. Generally incidents are under and poorly reported. Seems that only incidents with a body get any mention. Good video makes a story reach the local news.

 

[jmorris]

Yeah, like the one at 5656 Eldorado Parkway, Frisco, TX, which is located smack in the middle of a zip code with a six figure median income. Really bad area with all the entitled people driving luxury SUVs trying to get in and out of the parking lot.

Or get shot to death in front of your home in broad daylight.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article159741269.html

Or in the parking lot at the mall during the day.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article159741269.html

Frisco isn't the "home of the fighting coons" anymore, it's just Dallas moving North.

 

[Deanimator]

If you believe in an afterlife, somewhere Arthur Buford is telling the deceased nitwit, "See, that's why you don't do that..."

 

[Deanimator]

I have to go thru cleveland to see a friend of mine out there... it is the pit hole of america, next to NY being the worst state to live in, if your a gun owner.

On what "facts" do you base this?

• Ohio has state preemption. The ONLY gun laws in Ohio are Ohio and Federal laws.
• Ohio has shall issue concealed carry.
• There is no registration.
• There is no licensing for ownership, only concealed carry.
• Open carry (without licensing, or even ID) is legal.
• There are no "assault weapon" laws or magazine limits.
• Municipalities who abuse CHL holders are liable for legal fees.
• In justified shootings, neither the aggressor nor his survivors can collect monetary damages.

Now tell me, in WHAT way is Cleveland (or anywhere else in Ohio) comparable to NYC in terms of gun laws?

Apparently, you've never heard of Chicago... or the entire state of California.

 

[Deanimator]

That brush is certainly broad.

The city of Cleveland ?

The city gun laws in Cleveland are EXACTLY what they are in Coshocton and Cincinnati... NONEXISTENT.

There are NO gun laws in Ohio below the state level, and precious few of those.

Cleveland can pass all of the gun laws it wants. They're facially invalid.

Passing something and enforcing it are VERY different things. Even passing unconstitutional laws has made quite a bit of coin for plaintiffs and their attorneys.

 

[Cooter Boolit]

On what "facts" do you base this?

• Ohio has state preemption. The ONLY gun laws in Ohio are Ohio and Federal laws.
• Ohio has shall issue concealed carry.
• There is no registration.
• There is no licensing for ownership, only concealed carry.
• Open carry (without licensing, or even ID) is legal.
• There are no "assault weapon" laws or magazine limits.
• Municipalities who abuse CHL holders are liable for legal fees.
• In justified shootings, neither the aggressor nor his survivors can collect monetary damages.

Now tell me, in WHAT way is Cleveland (or anywhere else in Ohio) comparable to NYC in terms of gun laws?

Apparently, you've never heard of Chicago... or the entire state of California.

Sorry, you might have misunderstood me, i was talking about NY gun laws sucking, not ohio.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

It seems that it would be completely legal to furnish (give) a friend or relative (over 18) a handgun for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes and then simply not get it back.

 

[Panzerschwein]

So Taco Bell pulled through on our side?

We should all go patronize them with AR-15s on 3-point slings. Open carry at Taco Bell! Let's see how long they hold out!

 

[Old Dog]

I will say this: if the franchise owner permitted his employees to (legally) carry handguns while at work, I'd like to personally thank and congratulate him.

 

[rtroha]

(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

It seems that it would be completely legal to furnish (give) a friend or relative (over 18) a handgun for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes and then simply not get it back.

"under the supervision or control of a responsible adult". Once that ceases you just became a felon.

 

[22-rimfire]

Cleveland, parts of Cleveland aren't on my high visit list. Nothing wrong with Ohio in general in terms of living there.

I think one needs to look a bit into the crime history of that particular Taco Bell (TB) before making too many judgements. As a franchise TB, the owner can allow employees to carry inside their restaurant. My guess is that it's more of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy which is the way I would handle it if it was the least big justified by the recent history of that TB. I would personally not encourage employees to carry guns under normal circumstances if I owed the restaurant.

I like Taco Bell food. I love their mild taco sauce and wish it was available for sale in regular grocery stores. The regular hot is good too. I keep a supply at home to add a little pizzazz to my Mexican dishes that I might prepare or consume at home including TB stuff when they run out.

Added: Was at WM today. Was curious about TB sauce since other restaurant chains package and sell their own brand of sacsa. Low and behold... TB sauce is for sale in jars. Bought some (mild and medium strength). I'm happy!

 

[DM~]

IF that ends up being a clean shoot and TB doesn't mess with the employees for doing what they did, I pledge to go to TB at least 10 times before the end of the year, AND that's something I "normally" wouldn't do because they are a long ways from where I live..

DM

 

[Berger.Fan222]

"under the supervision or control of a responsible adult". Once that ceases you just became a felon.

If someone is over 18, why can't they be their own responsible adult? Further, the way the law is worded, the "responsible adult" is a sufficient but not a necessary component under the law. Or do you not understand the meaning of the words "but not limited to"?

There is no burden under the law to take a firearm back that was furnished for lawful purposes, and there is no burden under the law to babysit the under age person to whom the firearm was furnished for the entire time they are in possession of it.

 

[444]

If someone is over 18, why can't they be their own responsible adult? Further, the way the law is worded, the "responsible adult" is a sufficient but not a necessary component under the law. Or do you not understand the meaning of the words "but not limited to"?

There is no burden under the law to take a firearm back that was furnished for lawful purposes, and there is no burden under the law to babysit the under age person to whom the firearm was furnished for the entire time they are in possession of it.

This has very little to do with the original post, and I am no lawyer or even really familiar with how the Ohio law reads................but...................... I can tell you a story of what happened to a guy I know right here in the local area.
This guy was at his friend's property working on something or another in a rural area. Basically he was on a farm. The guy brought along his teenage son (he was like 13 or 14 years old) and while they were working, his son walked down over the hill and was squirrel hunting. He was actually within sight of his father when the game warden showed up and the father was charged with allowing his son to hunt unsupervised. The guy went to court and was fined a fair amount....I don't remember the number but it was over $1000 dollars.

Before I heard about this, I didn't know this was even a thing. When I was a kid, we hunted and shot guns all the time when we were younger than that guy. I wasn't told about this by the guy that it happened to, and I can not absolutely guarantee that this is a true story, but, I know the guy and I know the guy who told me. And he wasn't telling me this because he was outraged or because of some RKBA thing: he was just telling me this as a piece of local news: Hey, did you hear what happened to Joe Blow ? When he got into the story, I stopped him and said, wait a minute, it's illegal for a teenager to hunt by himself ? And he matter of factly said, yes; like this was common knowledge.

 

[22-rimfire]

Unsupervised... that story about squirrel hunting really sucks. I hunted by myself lots when I was sub 18 years old. Wonder why on earth a game warden showed up in the first place? Kind of strange really.

 

[444]

Unsupervised... that story about squirrel hunting really sucks. I hunted by myself lots when I was sub 18 years old. Wonder why on earth a game warden showed up in the first place? Kind of strange really.

Speculation is that someone saw this and turned him in. Someone that didn't like him obviously. And of course they have a good idea of who it was.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

This has very little to do with the original post, and I am no lawyer or even really familiar with how the Ohio law reads................but...................... I can tell you a story of what happened to a guy I know right here in the local area.
This guy was at his friend's property working on something or another in a rural area. Basically he was on a farm. The guy brought along his teenage son (he was like 13 or 14 years old) and while they were working, his son walked down over the hill and was squirrel hunting. He was actually within sight of his father when the game warden showed up and the father was charged with allowing his son to hunt unsupervised. The guy went to court and was fined a fair amount....I don't remember the number but it was over $1000 dollars.

It was a game violation and not a firearms violation. It would not have made a difference if he was hunting with a bow or an air rifle. Ohio has some particular laws about youths needing direct supervision when hunting. Some of the details depend on whether they've had hunter education and whether they are taking advantage of special youth seasons. The hunting laws require the responsible adult to be right there if the youth is hunting without having had hunter ed or when taking advantage of a special youth season.

I've been an NRA instructor in Ohio, as well as a hunter ed instructor. None of the youth hunting laws apply to other situations (youth target shooting but not hunting, or someone over 18 hunting). One can furnish a firearm to a youth for a lawful sporting activity (say target shooting) and there is no burden to be present the whole time or to take the firearm back immediately after the activity is over. As long as the reason the firearm was furnished was legal, the youth may remain in possession of the firearm. For example, an uncle could furnish his nephew with a 22 LR for squirrel hunting, with the understanding that the adult requirements would be met. The uncle is not burdened to be the adult in attendance, the mom or dad could do it. The uncle has not broken the law by furnishing the 22 LR, even if some law was broken later on (unless it could be shown that the uncle somehow knew a law would be broken.)

I introduced lots of friends and family in Ohio to shooting and hunting over the years, and yes I furnished the tools of the trade to many youths. No, I didn't always need to immediately supervise just because the youth was under a certain age. It depended on the comfort level of the parents and myself with the responsible nature of the youth. Yes, we were checked by game wardens a few times. Several of the youths' dads were sworn LEOs. There was never a hint we had done anything illegal, as it is a perversion of the law to mangle it to mean an adult needs to baby sit a youth every moment they are in possession of a firearm.

 

[joed]

You have to live here to appreciate this. In the city you may never get anyone from LE to help you. We are told to give the thief what they want and not resist. If the thief is ever caught nothing happens to them. In this case 1 of them will not be back on the street. I think they should have taken the corpse outside and nailed it to a tree as a lesson for others.

Two years ago I decided I had enough after going to a drug store on a Sunday evening. As I pulled into the parking lot 2 thugs came running off the street and stood by the door of the store waiting for me to try and enter. Having a CCW I put my gun on my belt and got out of the truck heading for the store. After about 3 steps I decided it wasn't worth it, got back in the truck and bought a house in the country the next week.

There is something wrong with a society that encourages these thugs. I still wonder what would have happened to me had I confronted the 2 thugs at that drug store.