Cnbc remington hit job

[HorseSoldier]

Name calling back and forth and such aside, I'm surprised Remington's response to Portland PD was just "get bent, you're out of warranty" -- they're a small department (160 sworn officers, or so) but you'd think the PR folks at Remington would have seen a potential issue here (even if they didn't see CNBC having a slow news day and all). I wonder if how unaltered and factory stock the rifles in question were was in dispute? As was already noted by others, it's definitely odd to see a small PD discover a show stopping flaw that neither the Army or USMC discovered with however many thousand M24s and M40s they've got on the books . . .

 

[Skylerbone]

The overwhelming evidence suggests it does come from the factory in a safe, shootable manner. Using it as a tactical, professional piece of gear intended to take out a threat most certainly justifies additional expense. It seems the city of Portland had enough money to spring for 5 new rifles.

Really? You wanted to highlight that any trigger damaged by a user or tinkered with can fail? Do you then believe any adjustable trigger or any trigger which can be damaged is defective?

Great that you met Hathcock. I met (on numerous occasions) and had a chance to hunt with a friend of my fathers who worked for the FBI as a sniper. His brother was a police officer locally and served with my dad. The local pd sniper team shoots at the same range as I do (pd doesn't have a rifle range) and I've known several of them since I was a teen. I have shot with and hunted with several of them. I shoot several thousand rounds every year, own well over a dozen firearms and have hunted for more than 3 decades. I have been friends with the best two gunsmiths in my metro area for 2 decades, spending countless hours working with one and hundreds of hours talking shop with the other. Now that I've given my qualifications, again, where is your evidence? What are your qualifications, aside from a grip and grin with world's most famous sniper? Explain what you personally find flawed about Remington's triggers. Have you ever owned one or looked at one up close or is your experience limited to something you saw on TV last week?

You really ought to arm yourself with facts, be they your own or others before leveling such a charge against any company. Still waiting...

 

[robertbartsc]

The cnbc piece played this morning (Monday) at 4am, again... this is the fourth showing in less than 10 days.

 

[JohnBT]

"The overwhelming evidence suggests it does come from the factory in a safe, shootable manner."

Except for all the ones that fired when the safety lever was moved. What about those? How do they fit into your so-called "evidence"?

John

 

[Skylerbone]

The levers were moved off safe to a point between the "safe" and "fire" markings on the rifle then the trigger was pulled. That indicates a conscious effort to fire the weapon. The shooter gave the order to fire and pulled the trigger.

I assume "all the ones that fired" refers to the 44 Remington has verified as legitimate out of 7 million. Let's do the math:

44 divided by 7,000,000 = .00000629 which translates to: .000629% and you would have them bankrupt themselves to the tune of an estimated $350,000,000 recall? I bet that would make some of you very happy. Say "Hi" to Mrs. Brady and Mrs. Clinton for me.

 

[Maverick223]

Yeah, it is perfectly alright for only *some* of the rifles to be faulty and dangerous to handle. Of course wanting a properly designed, functional rifle makes us gun-grabbing liberals, set out to strip freedoms from good, honest Americans.

 

[Robert]

functional rifle makes us gun-grabbing liberals, set out to strip freedoms for good, honest Americans.

I thought that was the plan...

Now that I've given my qualifications

All of that only says that you know a guy who knows a guy and that you shoot with them from time to time. Glad you can afford to shoot thousands of rounds a year out of multiple weapons. Wish I could. But how does any of that make you an expert in real world application of sniper teams?

Have you taken and and have certification from a reputable gun smithing school? No, working in a shop with a guy who knows is great. I do the same thing when it comes to working on my truck, but I am not a mechanic nor would I claim to be. So all of your "qualifications" really amount to about the same as everyone else in this thread. You have firearms and a keyboard. You like everyone here is entitled to your opinion, just don't get bent out of shape if someone does not agree.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Really? You wanted to highlight that any trigger damaged by a user or tinkered with can fail? Do you then believe any adjustable trigger or any trigger which can be damaged is defective?

I wanted to highlight that you have said that

"We can all agree that any dropped, dirty or altered trigger can fire unintentionally..."

and

"If they used them with stock triggers, no adjustment I contend they are foolish."

You really ought to arm yourself with facts, be they your own or others before leveling such a charge against any company. Still waiting...

I'm not levelling charges against anyone. I'm simply stating that the walker trigger design is more prone to failure than others with fewer parts.

You may want to rethink your tone.

 

[robertbartsc]

Personnaly, I wonder if CNBC is running a smear campain to gain a bigger TV audience.

It would be a shame if Remington were forced in to bankruptcy since, they are owned by a private equity group and they would likely just liquidate in Chapter 7 and just close the doors forever!

If that is the case, that is exactly what the gun grabbers want. Hey, if we can't legislate a set of laws to eliminate guns, let's destroy all the gun makers.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

It would be a shame if Remington were forced in to bankruptcy since, they are owned by a private equity group and they would likely just liquidate in Chapter 7 and just close the doors forever!

If that is the case, that is exactly what the gun grabbers want. Hey, if we can't legislate a set of laws to eliminate guns, let's destroy all the gun makers.

If this was a new problem that had just arisen, and remington hadn't had time to make good on it, that would be one thing.

Remington has known about this for a long time, and hasn't fixed it.

 

[Skylerbone]

I'm not levelling charges against anyone. I'm simply stating that the walker trigger design is more prone to failure than others with fewer parts.

. That reasoning would strip cars of an engine to reduce potential failure. Sure would make them safer and Ralph Nader would be clicking his heels together. Moreover, that reasoning indicates there can be only one perfect design and all others must be recalled. Since all the design in the world cannot guarantee infallibility in a part that CAN wear and CAN get dirty and CAN be damaged NO design may be seen as acceptable and THAT is ultimately where CNBC falls in the argument.

I apologize Mr. Wyatt if I have offended you in any way, that is truly not my intent. I mean only to separate fact from speculation, defects from detractors and was offering a bit of background to strengthen my argument.

I have spoken at length with those who are intimately familiar with the 700 and they feel it's design is sufficiently safe. They also confirmed that no stock trigger is sniper grade. So say what you will about the feel or weight or creep of the trigger but judge with a critical mind and the above in mind as to whether or not one thing being "more prone to the possibility of failure" makes it worthy of claims of gross negligence.

FWIW, Remington's parent company, an investment group, will never allow Remington to admit fault (assuming they felt it warranted) and as such Remington (as a brand name) is simply being used as a pawn. Too bad we couldn't all get together and buy them out, then we might all get rifles worth using in stock form.

 

[Maverick223]

FWIW, I have heard that Cerberus plans to make Remington a publicly traded company in the next year or so.

 

[robertbartsc]

As an accountant in public practice for +30years, I've done IPO work for decades. I seriously doubt Remington will be a public company anytime soon.

With this situation hanging over their head, many might avoid their stock because of the risk.

Apparently, their owner bought several gun makers recently when the threat of new gun legislation was highest. Several of their recent moves, like the Chrysler deal went bad. I suppose you can add Remington to that list thanks, in part, to CNBC.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

. That reasoning would strip cars of an engine to reduce potential failure. Sure would make them safer and Ralph Nader would be clicking his heels together. Moreover, that reasoning indicates there can be only one perfect design and all others must be recalled. Since all the design in the world cannot guarantee infallibility in a part that CAN wear and CAN get dirty and CAN be damaged NO design may be seen as acceptable and THAT is ultimately where CNBC falls in the argument.

I said the walker design had too many parts, so you natter on about Ralph Nader? ***?

I apologize Mr. Wyatt if I have offended you in any way, that is truly not my intent. I mean only to separate fact from speculation, defects from detractors and was offering a bit of background to strengthen my argument.

You are doing a terrible job at your stated goal, because i have no idea what your argument even is. You say the trigger will fail if modified and then say anyone who uses it unmodified is a fool.

I have spoken at length with those who are intimately familiar with the 700 and they feel it's design is sufficiently safe. They also confirmed that no stock trigger is sniper grade.

If you're going to appeal to authority, at least include their contact information so your claims can be followed up on. If you're not going to do that, don't even bring them up.

So say what you will about the feel or weight or creep of the trigger but judge with a critical mind and the above in mind as to whether or not one thing being "more prone to the possibility of failure" makes it worthy of claims of gross negligence.

I am judging with a critical mind, and my critical mind says your argument needs work.

 

[JohnBT]

"Say "Hi" to Mrs. Brady and Mrs. Clinton for me. "

Does your momma know you're on the computer again little fella? Why don't you come up out of the basement and go play in the street. You obviously have no business talking with the grownups.


"You really ought to arm yourself with facts"

You are the one with no facts. This problem with the Model 700 has been public knowledge for a generation or two now.

John

 

[JohnBT]

Forgot something...

"I assume "all the ones that fired" refers to the 44 Remington has verified as legitimate"

So you even admit that you know that Remington is aware of flawed rifles. And yet you blather on. Sheesh. Now there's a fact that's hard to ignore.

 

[MythBuster]

Once again. All of this is because today most people refuse to try to learn real shooting skills.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Once again. All of this is because today most people refuse to try to learn real shooting skills.

Could you expand upon this? Just based on what you said, I don't see the relevance.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Could you expand upon this? Just based on what you said, I don't see the relevance.

I suppose it has something to do with what we all do routinely -- each time we load a gun, we test it 10,000 times to see if it will fire with the safety on, or fire when the safety is disengaged.

But, yeah -- a failure of the gun should not lead to a death.

That said, the gun should not fail.

 

[Uncle Mike]

Remington has known about this for a long time, and hasn't fixed it.

That is not Remingtons position, they will tell you that, there is nothing wrong with their trigger, if properly maintained and not tampered with by unauthorized personnel.

You put brakes on your car when needed, and you certainly don't let a sledge hammer toting bubba put those brakes on, and if your not familiar with the process of putting brakes on a vehicle, you certainly have no business doing it...right?

Same with the Model 700 trigger...or any trigger for that fact!

 

[Maverick223]

But, yeah -- a failure of the gun should not lead to a death.

That said, the gun should not fail.

To play devil's advocate...or perhaps add a little fuel to the fire; exactly how does one proceed if they happen to have a barrel obstruction (dirt, et al) in an unmodified pre-'82 Rem. 700 (or similar) with round chambered and safety engaged? Flip the safety off and see what happens? Clean with a chambered cartridge? Use a string attached to the safety to get several yards back and pull (BTW the rifle would have to be pointed in your general direction )?

As one might imagine, I have never had this happen, but is well within the realm of possibility.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm the wrong guy to answer this, since I don't have a Remington M700 -- and Remington's refusal to go to a 3-position safety is a prime reason.

But I put a bit of electrician's tape over the muzzle of my rifle when hunting -- and carry a sectioned cleaning rod either in a pocket or in my pack.

 

[Maverick223]

But I put a bit of electrician's tape over the muzzle of my rifle when hunting -- and carry a sectioned cleaning rod either in a pocket or in my pack.

That is a good trick, as is a finger (or bbl) cot...but lets say that you didn't know about these methods, or forgot to do so. You'd have a bit of a problem...

 

[Skylerbone]

Does your momma know you're on the computer again little fella? Why don't you come up out of the basement and go play in the street. You obviously have no business talking with the grownups.

Very High Road of you, John. Set those trifocals of yours on the rest of the thread above and read it. Since you seem so well informed and "nobody is bashing, we're discussing facts" what is that about? If I haven't roamed this earth some 60 years like you I must be a 7 year old girl wheeling around the internet in my parent's basement? Hardly.

Must I say it again? Statistical anomoly. Insignificant percentage. Did I mention where is YOUR evidence? We all know everything we own is a POS thanks to opinions like yours and we all know no firearm you own could ever malfunction due to perfect design, engineering and the suspension of the laws of physics.

Here's a picture of what I dragged out of the woods last month, with my mommy's help.

Here's a shot of my basement, I don't live in it like you suggest but my wife sends me there sometimes.

Now can we get back to the subject that seems to be most avoided here: do any of you naysayers have specific information about what makes the Walker trigger a flawed design? No one is interested in the "it has one more part than other triggers so it must be a design flaw" argument. My wife's Ford has six cupholders with room for only 5 passengers, that doesn't make it flawed from a design standpoint.

And John, please keep the nasty comments to yourself, I'm too old to put up with them and I've done nothing to deserve them. If you wish to bankrupt every gun manufacturer in court who has ever had firearms fail then we'll surely be sitting right where the aforementioned Mrs. Brady wants us.

Stay safe all, it's time for me and these Remington threads to part ways.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Now that's sorted.