Coated bullets and scraping

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gk3

gk3

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I have read the threads on here which explain a little more case belling than normal is required to prevent scraping Hi-Tek coating during seating.

My expander die is set with a generous amount of flare, and most of my rounds do not scrape during seating, but some do (maybe 5-10 out of every hundred.

I noticed that belling often varies by case, which is likely the issue (it's mixed, once fired range brass).

Do you adjust belling for worst case, and as a result, add a little more than what should be needed for the majority of cases?

Should I adjust 1/8 to 1/4 turn until it stops? I just worry about going too far on some cases. I am already adding more flare with Dillon dies vs. Lee dies, which is the main reason for my hesitation.

My setup is an XL650 and 9mm Dillon dies. Most of my experience loading 9mm is on my old setup - an LCT with Lee dies.
 
If bad enough to require an adjustment I would only adj 1/16 or less. It does not take much when your doing a decent flare. May pull the short cases and see how much shorter they are, then use them to setup the expander.
 
Once you have the mouth of the case a larger diameter than the base of the bullet, if you can seat the bullet straight, it won’t scrape the coating off.

The GSI bullet feeders hold the bullet straight as they are being seated. This is how little bell I apply an the case doesn’t have any coating. That case with the bullet hasn’t been crimped yet. A1331623-FDF6-4359-AD55-6227C1B3F2FE.jpeg
 
I also tend to set up the expander die to open the problem brass. Yes on keeping the bullet straight when inserting it. You do not want to over work the brass but on 9MM I have never had a split case ever. usually loose them before anything else happens. This is not like expanding 38SPL/357 then reversing this by putting a good roll crimp on it. Those do split the necks due to overworking and I never loose that brass.
 
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gk3 said:
Do you adjust belling for worst case,
Click to expand...
Yes, in general, adjust the expander to give enough flare on the shortest cases. If you have a few super short ones you can always just scrap those.

Starting the bullets straight is also essential. It's best practice anyway, don't rely on sleeved seaters to do it for you, the straighter you start the bullet the better, sleeved seater or not, as they can only do so much.
 
Walkalong said:
Yes, in general, adjust the expander to give enough flare on the shortest cases. If you have a few super short ones you can always just scrap those.

Starting the bullets straight is also essential. It's best practice anyway, don't rely on sleeved seaters to do it for you, the straighter you start the bullet the better, sleeved seater or not, as they can only do so much.
Click to expand...

That's the nice thing about the Lyman M die. It opens up the case just enough to get the bullet set straight in the case.
 
I like the M Die, and the new imitations, but it also has to be adjusted down far enough to get the shortest cases done. :)
 
Just put enough flare in your brass to get good ammo now, and worry about case life later. You can use a lot of flare if you need, even if the brass scrapes the ID of the seating die. You want good shooting handloads now so flare the cases enough for 100% clean seating (Hi-tek and PCed bullets don't need any more flare than cast lead so use as much as necessary). Unless you are reloading an obsolete cartridge and brass is hard to find, don't worry about case life, the most used excuse for minimal flaring, as most 9mm brass is really easy to find and cheap, even if you have to buy new brass (I get a lot just scrounging the range!).
 
The Lyman die does not flare the case mouth more if it goes deeper into the case - the "flare" is parallel to the case and so screwing the die in deeper the die only pushes the flare deeper into the case - but the amount of flare does not change - it's fixed. I would advise sorting your brass by length and tossing the really short cases into your "trading stock" bag and not using them anymore. Over flaring cases repeatedly with a standard die will lead to spit cases as the mouth work hardens and your crimp will vary - a LOT. SOme cases don't hget enough and some cases get too much. If you've never used a Lyman M step die you really should try one. They are available in specific calibers or as a kit that has different sized flaring buttons that screw into a single die body. I have been using M step dies for many years and I cannot even remember the last time I had a case split. Plus the bullet will snap into the case mouth, sit straight and be pushed in straight. Bullets that go in straight will come out straight.
 
I have found that I need to use a 4 die set to seat Hi-Tek bullets without scraping off the coating. I adjust the expander die to get a flare of about 0.010 inches. The I set up the bullet seating die a little differently.

I raise the ram to the top of its stroke and hold. Then I screw the bullet seating die in until it touches the shell holder, then back it out six full turns, not the three recommended by Lee. I'm sure that three turns out is fine for jacketed bullets and probably plated bullets, but maybe not for coated bullets.

I put a sized casing into the bottom of the die by hand and note how far the casing goes into the seating die, then remove it. I take a flared casing, insert it into the shell holder, raise the ram all the way, and slowly screw in the bullet seating die until I feel the die touch the flared mouth of the casing, and then tighten the lock ring. If the seating die is screwed in too far, some of the flare is removed by the seating die, and some scraping of the coating may occur. If the die is not screwed in far enough, perhaps the casing won't be well centered in the die. I have found that this procedure results in about 4-5 full turns out from the die touching the shell holder.

Since I've been using this method, I haven't seen any coating damage at all. Placing the bullet in the generously flared casing is easy too.
 
It sounds to me as if your true issue is with the Seating Die and not the Expander. The seating plug inside the Seating Die should capture the bullet in such as way as to center the bullet during the very early stages of the seating process. Lee dies, as good as they are, do not really address centering. To be fair, you'll need a Seating Die with exchangeable plugs (like Hornady) to be able to effectively center all the various bullet shapes currently available. If you simply use 1 bullet shape only, then you could build up the Lee seating plug with epoxy.
 
rfwobbly said:
It sounds to me as if your true issue is with the Seating Die and not the Expander. The seating plug inside the Seating Die should capture the bullet in such as way as to center the bullet during the very early stages of the seating process. Lee dies, as good as they are, do not really address centering. To be fair, you'll need a Seating Die with exchangeable plugs (like Hornady) to be able to effectively center all the various bullet shapes currently available. If you simply use 1 bullet shape only, then you could build up the Lee seating plug with epoxy.
Click to expand...
OP is using Dillon dies, they have interchangeable seating stems.
gk3 said:
My setup is an XL650 and 9mm Dillon dies. Most of my experience loading 9mm is on my old setup - an LCT with Lee dies.
Click to expand...
My advice is to just bell for your shortest cases, load, shoot and repeat.

I love the "M" die and use them for loading cast in several rifle calibers, but I've never used them for pistol or revolver rounds. I've thought about getting one for .44 Magnum & Special where increased case life is important to me, but it seems like it'd be a waste of money for 9mm Luger.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I like the suggestion of more belling for the shortest length brass. I have nearly 20 gallons of 9mm brass that is ever increasing, so it makes the most sense.

My next task is to get the Dillon powder funnel to stop sticking in the case mouth on the ram downstroke.
 
gk3 said:
Thanks for the feedback. I like the suggestion of more belling for the shortest length brass. I have nearly 20 gallons of 9mm brass that is ever increasing, so it makes the most sense.

My next task is to get the Dillon powder funnel to stop sticking in the case mouth on the ram downstroke.
Click to expand...

Are you wet tumbling the brass?
 
This is a follow up post to share what finally fixed the problem. No matter how much or how little flare I used with the Dillon powder funnel, coated bullets were consistently scraped. I believe this is a result of the way the Dillon funnel bells the case, which leads to bullet instability as it enters the seating die.

I purchased a Double Alpha powder funnel that is designed for use with their bullet feeder. Unlike the Dillon funnel, it flares the case mouth instead of belling and allows a round to securely sit in the case mouth during indexing / seating. I believe the Lyman M dies recommended above work in the same manner. Although I do not use a bullet feeder, the stability that this new funnel offers is also beneficial when manually inserting projectiles.

I loaded 500 rounds last night with no scraping issues. The flare on the DAA powder funnel is minimal, and I'm also able to load faster because the projectiles sit so securely in the case mouth. Life is good.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel
 
Walkalong said:
I like the M Die, and the new imitations, but it also has to be adjusted down far enough to get the shortest cases done. :)
Click to expand...
I hope readers realize that they will have to measure every case to follow guidance related to case length. Then, if off by enough to truly compromise a group of nominal size, those cases will have to be segregated into significantly different length groups and run together for a special die setting or saved for another time or purpose.
 
The same held/holds true for the old style expanders, so I would hope so. That was an easy lesson to learn early on.
 
I load a lot of coated bullets. Mine are all .38/.357 but here is what I do and never have any problems with scraping. On my Dillon 650, I use the Dillon expander die because I love the Dillon Powder measure. On my Lee press, I use the Lee Die with the Disc Measure. I do expand the case a tad more when I switched to coated than I was using for plain lead and jacketed. Not much but maybe a 1/8 of a turn of the die. I use separate Lee Dies on both presses for seating and crimping. One thing I think that helps as well is the way I clean my brass. I stopped wet tumbling and went back to dry vibratory. Drying the brass was a pain to me. When I dry tumble I use corn cob media and always add some metal polish. Lately I've used Turtle Wax Chrome Polish but I think any metal polish will work as well. I run my tumbler longer than I used to because I think the polish helps slick up the inside of the cases. Not sure if it helps with not scraping but you can feel the difference when you pull the handle on either press. Less resistance. I'm not a fan of Dillon seating and crimping dies. Always had great success with Lee. Do use a RCBS Roll Crimp die for magnum loads but still use the Lee seating die.
 
There are after market powder drops/expanders (Dillon calls 'em Powder Funnels) that have a bullet diameter step below the "flare/bell" angle.
Kinda like an M die...
The length of this bullet diameter step is longer than the standard case length tolerance so even the shortest case will have some bullet diameter expansion at it's mouth.
This bullet diameter expansion is way better than a bell/flare at keeping the bullet straight, and bullet tipping/scraping is no longer a problem.
The only drawback to this is reduced bullet/neck tension.
expander.png
http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1582
works for me,
:D
 
Last edited:
It is nice to see that Uniquetek is offering a Lyman M die profile expander...already copied by Redding, RCBS and Hornady...for use on the Dillon presses.

What is a bit amazing is that it has taken this long to address the Dillon issue, when you consider how long folks have been using coated bullets
 
9mmepiphany said:
It is nice to see that Uniquetek is offering a Lyman M die profile expander...already copied by Redding, RCBS and Hornady...for use on the Dillon presses.

What is a bit amazing is that it has taken this long to address the Dillon issue, when you consider how long folks have been using coated bullets
Click to expand...
Yeh, I wish someone made M type expanders for Lee dies, I'd buy them for sure, way easier than making them.
Anyone have a source for M type expanders for Lee dies :scrutiny:
:thumbup:
 
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